I'd take my advice about rail passes from the posters here who have actually used them extensively. I agree with Palenque, I've seen so many times people repeat "oh it will never pay off" as an almost knee-jerk response to the words "rail pass".

I still say it sure helps to have at least a somewhat confirmed itinerary, to try to work the math on this question.

PQ - I'm not sure what your problem is, but creating random itineraries on threads that you think might break even with a pass is not helpful to the OP. The itinerary you created:

A. Is to cities the OP isn't traveling.
B. Is for 3 weeks and the OP is only traveling for 12-17 (and stated if 17 days that included travel to and from home country).
C. Is for a pass that is not applicable to the OP (OP is traveling with 7 kids and youth passes are only 2nd class).

You don't seriously suggest the OP should spend 6 of their 12 (possibly 15) vacation days on trains with 7 kids? Should they really visit 7 cities in 12 days?

suze - I think the OP should listen to the people that regularly travel to Italy, use these trains, know the prices and discounts. We have no financial interest in promoting passes, only in giving accurate advice. I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains. Why? Because 2nd is fine and most treks between cities in Italy are under 2 hours. Additionally, passes don't include seat reservations which are mandatory in Italy on all but the slow R trains. That adds 10€ per person every time you train. The pass also doesn't include any sleeping accommodations on overnight trains which can add up (especially for a group of 9). A pass can't give you the family discount of 20% either that's offered by Trenitalia which the OP would qualify for.

I can create a typical tourist itinerary of Rome/Florence, Florence/Venice, Venice/Milan would cost an adult in this family 93€ ($113)on the fastest trains. The cheapest rail pass (Italy only as are much more expensive) for an adult in this family for this route would cost $176 (3 day pass) plus they would still need to buy 3 seat reservations of 10€ ($12.30)each which adds $36.90 to the pass making it cost $212.90. One adult in this family on this itinerary would save $99 by not purchasing a pass. That adds up when you are traveling with 9 people. The family could use the $99 savings to fly to Paris (only 35-50€). The cheapest France/Italy pass is $270 for 4 days and you would still need to add 4 days of seat costs.

I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains.>

yes indeedy - four decades of traveling on Italian trains tells me that, for the relatively small price differential, first class is far superior to 2nd class, which is OK on the Eurostar trains

but in first class you have 25% fewer seats in the same train-car space and these seats are also less likely to be filled - more room for luggage, etc.

I only mention passes when they are viable for a certain trip - now i have not followed the other thread where the OP has changed, etc. and i do not say railpasses are always the best way - but for a typical Italian trip, as i showed a few weeks ago, they certainly can be cost effective. Why the mantra 'railpasses in Italy are rarely cost effective' is repeated so much is a mystery to me.

and in kybourobon's last paragraph if the adult were to be returning to Rome from Milan then the pass may be in play - the more days of travel the cheaper per day the pass - about $20 per extra day i believe - so if the party were also going to Naples and back, etc. Well my point is you cannot make blanket statements that bourbon has done repeatedly in the past that 'railpasses rarely make sense in Italy' as that has to be looked at case to case and not generalized.

It gets me when folks say they just cannot understand why anyone would go first class on Italian trains - that 2nd class is just as good

Q - then why do many many folks - Italians - pay extra for first class - are they total idiots?

Q - then why do many many folks - Italians - pay extra for first class - are they total idiots?

Two words:
Expense account.

Well i have ridden first-class on Italian trains for decades and though, like in any country, there are the suit-and-tie-and briefcase brigade on account there are also lots of plain ole Italians riding first class simply because it is in many ways a lot more leisurely than second-class.

And anyone who says it is not tells me they have not ridden that many trains in Italy IMO.

kybourbon~ While my experience is limited to a couple trips I saw a BIG difference between 1st and 2nd class on Italian trains. Starting, but not limited to, with how crowded the cars normally are.

suze - I think the OP should listen to the people that regularly travel to Italy, use these trains, know the prices and discounts. We have no financial interest in promoting passes, only in giving accurate advice.>

And all that applies to me as well - four decades of traveling on Italian trains and despite your suggestion that i profit from Italian railpasses, which i also regularly advise against if the itinerary don't warrant one, but my aim - after four decades of being a professional travel writer specializing in European trains, is like you to give the best advice possible and that includes correcting misinformation that some 'experts' keep posting about railpasses never being a good deal in Italy, etc.

<I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains> -
read Suze's post above - and even though you would automatically discredit her because she has only traveled a few times on trains to me that is the advice - of a typical novice traveler - that others planning a trip should take to heart.
Again i say anyone who says there is no difference between first and second class simply IMO has not ridden in both classes very much.

Well, i think basically it is a math question. Now that we have more specifics we will need to sit down and figure it all out. But the info above was great and a number of sites that were listed i did not have. so that will all help a ton.

Thanks.

jerrylee - In the past reservations for seats on trains in Italy weren't required so trains could be crowded as suze stated (don't know what type of train she used). That meant people could be standing in the aisles. This is no longer the case except on the slow R trains as now you must have a seat. Here are pictures of 1st and 2nd class on the Italian trains. The fast trains (AV/ES) are what most tourists use between the major cities. The ICPlus/IC trains are used less frequently by tourists as travel time is longer (cost less and can be a bargain on some routes), but there are pictures of those also. You can decide whether it's worth it to spend an extra 20€ (typical price difference Rome/Florence, Florence/Venice, etc.)per person per train for 1st for such short rides.

http://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.h...0trains%20like

You didn't state the age of your children so some might be free. Your family will certainly qualify for the family discount as long as one child is 12 or under, but with such a large group, I would purchase all the routes that require seats upon arrival in Italy. It's hard to get exact prices for your group on Trenitalia as it will only allow you to enter a total number of five travelers. The family discount requires two adults traveling with children, but they will discount the whole group or at least I've been given the discount for my entire group in the past. You can enter the two adults and 3 kids for the family discount and figure the other kids separately, but that won't reflect the extra 20% you will probably get for them. Here's the age breakdown for kid's discounts.

>>> Ticket prices for youngsters and children
Children under the age of 4 travel free of charge in both first and second class but they do not have the right to a seat. Children still under 12 (considered as the day after the birthday), can occupy a seat, travelling for 50% off and 30% off in WL and CC. <<<<