Rookie Mistakes: UK
Jan 11th, 2005, 08:54 AM
#41
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fyi the whole concept and terms U/non-U were first written about by a certain Professor ASC Ross in 1954 - it was then popularised further by NM in, I believe, a column she used to write in one of the monthlies.
As for being one of the "dim witted" who have swallowed it all hook, line and sinker I would disagree.... like many paradies it has at its heart a genesis in a truth - and that truth being that some words/usage of language do serve to tell people apart by social background - as ever was the case from Norman French amongst the aristocracy to modern street slang... or are you suggesting you pepper your sentances with "innit"?
Dr D.
(....innit)
fyi the whole concept and terms U/non-U were first written about by a certain Professor ASC Ross in 1954 - it was then popularised further by NM in, I believe, a column she used to write in one of the monthlies.
As for being one of the "dim witted" who have swallowed it all hook, line and sinker I would disagree.... like many paradies it has at its heart a genesis in a truth - and that truth being that some words/usage of language do serve to tell people apart by social background - as ever was the case from Norman French amongst the aristocracy to modern street slang... or are you suggesting you pepper your sentances with "innit"?
Dr D.
(....innit)
Jan 11th, 2005, 11:04 AM
#43
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I completely disagree about "toilet." My grandfather always used the word "toilet" and he was at Harrow. My grandfather also said "mirror," not "looking glass."
I use the word "toilet" here in the States, and people look at me as if I told them to "s*d off." It is considered extremely crude. Americans say "bathroom," which is ridiculous because unless a toilet is in a private home, there is no bathtub in it. I love to irritate Americans when they ask me where the bathroom is at my office. I say, "Sorry, we have no bathrooms here. You will have to take a bath somewhere else."
In my opinion, the Mitford family was nothing but trash. One was a Nazi traitor (Unity?), who was involved with Oswald Mosely.
I use the word "toilet" here in the States, and people look at me as if I told them to "s*d off." It is considered extremely crude. Americans say "bathroom," which is ridiculous because unless a toilet is in a private home, there is no bathtub in it. I love to irritate Americans when they ask me where the bathroom is at my office. I say, "Sorry, we have no bathrooms here. You will have to take a bath somewhere else."
In my opinion, the Mitford family was nothing but trash. One was a Nazi traitor (Unity?), who was involved with Oswald Mosely.
Jan 11th, 2005, 01:24 PM
#44
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No, no no.
Unity was the one who went to Munich and fell in love with Hitler. It was Diana who married Mosely.
FWIW, the last of the Mitfords, Rupert, is a fine upstanding fellow who takes the Liberal whip in the upper House.
Unity was the one who went to Munich and fell in love with Hitler. It was Diana who married Mosely.
FWIW, the last of the Mitfords, Rupert, is a fine upstanding fellow who takes the Liberal whip in the upper House.
Jan 11th, 2005, 02:05 PM
#45
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Hmmm... "nothing but trash" let's see...
one satirist/novelist (Nancy)
two fascists (Diana & Unity)
one poultry farmer/expert (Pamela)
one socialist/spanish republican/satirist (Jessica wrote "The American Way Of Death" - top book!)
one duchess (Deborah is la Chatsworth, ie Devonshire)
one died in Burma in WW2 (Tom, only son).
Not complete trash then... just a pretty broad spectrum, and I have more than just a little admiration for Jessica - for her politics/activism and her writing - and enjoy dipping in and out of Nancy's various writings from time to time... rather like Wodehouse but with needle sharp teeth.
Dr D
one satirist/novelist (Nancy)
two fascists (Diana & Unity)
one poultry farmer/expert (Pamela)
one socialist/spanish republican/satirist (Jessica wrote "The American Way Of Death" - top book!)
one duchess (Deborah is la Chatsworth, ie Devonshire)
one died in Burma in WW2 (Tom, only son).
Not complete trash then... just a pretty broad spectrum, and I have more than just a little admiration for Jessica - for her politics/activism and her writing - and enjoy dipping in and out of Nancy's various writings from time to time... rather like Wodehouse but with needle sharp teeth.
Dr D
Jan 11th, 2005, 03:04 PM
#46
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Some more rookie mistakes:
- not checking opening times for National Trust properties properly - you must read the fine print
- not checking my car for dints, etc. before driving off the rental lot
- not knowning that when someone at the other end of a narrow road blinks their lights at you that you are supposed to go through
- not realizing that 'antiques' to the British are quite different than what we (Canadians) would consider an antique.
- assuming pubs will offer food at all hours - not true
- looking for dishwashing detergent and finally being told it was called washing up liquid
- not knowing that frogs crossing the road in places is actually a hazard at certain times of the year, and not a joke
- realizing that I wasn't being ripped off because there was no top sheet on my bed
- realizing that all the soup I ordered was pureed, maybe it exists but I've never had a chunky soup in England
- not appreciating the heating systems in England - or lack of. A February night in a B&B outside Liverpool can get pretty darn cold. Even self-catering properties have an exotic way of regulating the heat with storage heaters, etc.
- that British drivers hate other drivers who think they should be able to drive in the middle lanes on the M roads.
- in self catering properties we've never found a screen on a window
- not realizing that on the telly, shows don't always start on the hour or half hour. A program can actually start at 20 minutes to the hour.
- you rarely get ice with a drink, you have to ask for it
- not understanding what 'adverse camber' or 'give way' on a traffic sign meant
- some of the shower mechanisms require a Ph.D in engineering to figure out
- to watch a video the television should be set on 'O' (or perhaps this is different for each set, I don't know)
- the sandwiches, for the most part, are fairly unexciting and the bread is very thin. Exception was an apple and stilton sandwich at The Nell in London.
- won't hear 'you're welcome' after you say 'thank you' - don't take it personal
- expected that you return your dirty pint glasses to the bar on leaving - will probably get you a 'cheers' from the landlord
And that's exactly why I keep going back.
- not checking opening times for National Trust properties properly - you must read the fine print
- not checking my car for dints, etc. before driving off the rental lot
- not knowning that when someone at the other end of a narrow road blinks their lights at you that you are supposed to go through
- not realizing that 'antiques' to the British are quite different than what we (Canadians) would consider an antique.
- assuming pubs will offer food at all hours - not true
- looking for dishwashing detergent and finally being told it was called washing up liquid
- not knowing that frogs crossing the road in places is actually a hazard at certain times of the year, and not a joke
- realizing that I wasn't being ripped off because there was no top sheet on my bed
- realizing that all the soup I ordered was pureed, maybe it exists but I've never had a chunky soup in England
- not appreciating the heating systems in England - or lack of. A February night in a B&B outside Liverpool can get pretty darn cold. Even self-catering properties have an exotic way of regulating the heat with storage heaters, etc.
- that British drivers hate other drivers who think they should be able to drive in the middle lanes on the M roads.
- in self catering properties we've never found a screen on a window
- not realizing that on the telly, shows don't always start on the hour or half hour. A program can actually start at 20 minutes to the hour.
- you rarely get ice with a drink, you have to ask for it
- not understanding what 'adverse camber' or 'give way' on a traffic sign meant
- some of the shower mechanisms require a Ph.D in engineering to figure out
- to watch a video the television should be set on 'O' (or perhaps this is different for each set, I don't know)
- the sandwiches, for the most part, are fairly unexciting and the bread is very thin. Exception was an apple and stilton sandwich at The Nell in London.
- won't hear 'you're welcome' after you say 'thank you' - don't take it personal
- expected that you return your dirty pint glasses to the bar on leaving - will probably get you a 'cheers' from the landlord
And that's exactly why I keep going back.
Jan 11th, 2005, 06:17 PM
#49
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When you are going to someplace from the center of the city to a tube stop outside, like West Brompton, check to be sure where the tube stops may transfer! I waited fooorrrreeevvvverrrr for a train at St. james, I think, for a train going to Wimbledon. After an hour I found out I needed to catch a train to Earl's Court and transfer there.
Jan 11th, 2005, 06:31 PM
#50
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Well I'm back to the ordering/tipping situation! Our first trip we tipped both at the bar when we left and at the table-we didn't know which to do so we did both -and the fact that we were so incredible thrilled and priveledged to be in the UK made us not care how much money we gave anyone!
Jan 11th, 2005, 09:21 PM
#51
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I'm going to bookmark this thread, but because I expect to revisit the US before I see England, and it's telling me as much about American sensibilities as English. I had no idea that "toilet" was considered crude in America, for instance. Explains a few funny looks. I'll have to watch myself. But "Rest room" is probably the silliest euphemism I've seen. You might take the weight off your feet for 5 or 10 minutes, depending on whether you have any reading material, but that's all. "Bathroom"? Yes, I'd expect to find a shower at least.
On expression that puzzles me is Kate's use of "on the nose". Where I come from, that means something that stinks. (Was it Dr Johnson who, on being told by his wife that he smelled, replied "No, Madam. YOU smell; I stink?) Here, "on the nose" can also refer to an unusually dire act of commercial or bureaucratic bastardry, much as Americans might say "that stinks!". In the US, is it used some another way?
Tipping - no problem. Not expected here. The difference of course is that American waiters, bar staff etc. rely on their tips to pay the rent because they're not paid a living wage.
On expression that puzzles me is Kate's use of "on the nose". Where I come from, that means something that stinks. (Was it Dr Johnson who, on being told by his wife that he smelled, replied "No, Madam. YOU smell; I stink?) Here, "on the nose" can also refer to an unusually dire act of commercial or bureaucratic bastardry, much as Americans might say "that stinks!". In the US, is it used some another way?
Tipping - no problem. Not expected here. The difference of course is that American waiters, bar staff etc. rely on their tips to pay the rent because they're not paid a living wage.
Jan 12th, 2005, 12:11 AM
#53
Neil, "on the nose" is used to mean that something is accurate, that you got it just right. I've never heard the Australian meaning before.
I'm still really confused about the bathroom/toilet issue. Here in the U.S., people never ask where the toilet is, but usually will ask for the ladies' room or the rest rooms. Even if it is a silly euphemism, it sounds right to me because that's the most commonly used expression. And toilet does sound really wrong to me. Now I read conflicting reports by British Fodorites as to the proper useage. Toilet is used by some because it sounds (falsely?) more refined? While to an American it sounds (falsely?) more crude?
It does sound as though I could just ask for the ladies (without the room?) and be safe. Who knew it was this complicated?
I'm still really confused about the bathroom/toilet issue. Here in the U.S., people never ask where the toilet is, but usually will ask for the ladies' room or the rest rooms. Even if it is a silly euphemism, it sounds right to me because that's the most commonly used expression. And toilet does sound really wrong to me. Now I read conflicting reports by British Fodorites as to the proper useage. Toilet is used by some because it sounds (falsely?) more refined? While to an American it sounds (falsely?) more crude?
It does sound as though I could just ask for the ladies (without the room?) and be safe. Who knew it was this complicated?
Jan 12th, 2005, 12:35 AM
#54
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Nikki, you will be understood and no-one will take offence if you use any of the following (and more!) loo, toilet, ladies (with or without room), lavatory, WC, etc. Most people will understand the US euphemisms too, though they may make a joke about "bathroom". I tend to use loo (can someone explain where this originated) or ladies in the UK and toilet throughout Europe, as the word is similar in many languages and usually understood, useful when you're desperate!
Jan 12th, 2005, 01:16 AM
#55
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A variant on all this lavatorial talk, and one for Neil and students of the English class system:
I once had a rather grand great-aunt(born in 1880) who lived in Australia for a while in the 1940s and 50s. When she came back she told a tale about being in a hotel bar when a rather Ocker (=Paul Hogan) type asked her 'Where's the dunny round here?', and she said that she replied 'Over there, there's a door marked 'Gentlemen', but you can ignore that and just go straight through'.
I once had a rather grand great-aunt(born in 1880) who lived in Australia for a while in the 1940s and 50s. When she came back she told a tale about being in a hotel bar when a rather Ocker (=Paul Hogan) type asked her 'Where's the dunny round here?', and she said that she replied 'Over there, there's a door marked 'Gentlemen', but you can ignore that and just go straight through'.
Jan 12th, 2005, 01:51 AM
#56
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I've been coming to the UK for about 15 years, and have lived here a total of 3 years, and I STILL can't figure out why so many pubs and restaurants refuse to have heat in the toilets. Why why why????
Jan 12th, 2005, 01:56 AM
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I've heard some people ask where "the facilities" are located.
Neil, two points: a) restroom is actually a pretty fair designation when you see the quality of many ladies' rooms in the U.S. in better department stores, restaurants, hotels, etc. The office I used to work at in Philadelphia had a sofa in the restroom. b) tipping, I know you love to make sneering comments about things American, but given the high cost of living in London these days, I wonder how many employees at London pubs really think they're being paid a "living wage." Also, I've noticed in the last two years or so, the "service not included" announcement at the bottom of the bill at UK restaurants seems be showing up in larger and larger type. Hint, hint.
Neil, two points: a) restroom is actually a pretty fair designation when you see the quality of many ladies' rooms in the U.S. in better department stores, restaurants, hotels, etc. The office I used to work at in Philadelphia had a sofa in the restroom. b) tipping, I know you love to make sneering comments about things American, but given the high cost of living in London these days, I wonder how many employees at London pubs really think they're being paid a "living wage." Also, I've noticed in the last two years or so, the "service not included" announcement at the bottom of the bill at UK restaurants seems be showing up in larger and larger type. Hint, hint.
