Ozziez

Please carry on Walter. This is absolutely fabulous and is going with us to Rome in December.

Please! Pleeeeeze !

LCBoniti

Ozziez -

In case Walter is not able to do more on this, check out another of his posts regarding a walking tour of Julius Caesar assassination sites:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34646917

I found it to be really interesting and helpful while we were in Rome.

Ozziez

Hi LCBoniti

Thanks so much for telling me about this. Wonderful!

We'll take it to Rome with us, along with Walter's Roman Forum Walking Tour.

ParadiseLost

#17.5 HOLE

Ok now, still standing in front of the tin roof over the Lacus Curtius look 90deg to the right (east) and you can see another Gladiator tunnel opening (in line with the 1 you have already seen 90deg to your left).


 Now look 45deg to the right (northeast). See the fenced-in big Hole in the center of the Forum Sq.
  And behind that are some column fragments and a rectangular stone pedestal base.
 

 In 1902 the archaeologist Boni was excavating the Gladiator tunnels beneath the Forum when he found a section of the main tunnel and 1 branch off of it blocked by concrete.


  The next year (1903-4) he dug this hole to excavate this underground oddity.

 This 1.5m Hole was once capped with large travertine blocks*** which were level with or slightly above the Forum pavement, making a massive base for something with the concrete foundation below for support. ***I don't know how they knew this, perhaps the lowest level of blocks was not removed?

  I get the impression that this Hole had been filled-in and paved-over at a later date (when whatever was here was removed along with the large travertine blocks below groundlevel) with the same type paving stones that make-up the Forum Sq.  

  This excavation exposed a concrete base 1.5m below the present pavement level that is 11.80m long x 5.9 wide and over 5m deep (~400 cubic meters of concrete).
 This Hole also has walls of Opus Caementicium.

 But the mystery only deepened when they hit this concrete base.
Because on top of this large concrete base were three travertine blocks set into the concrete.
 These blocks have a square hole in the center (0.44x0.44m & 0.15m deep).
Traces of bronze and carbon were found in these sq. holes.

 At the time Boni thought these were support holes for the Equus Domitiani (91AD), a colossal bronze equestrian statue of Domitian.

Coins from that period show this statue as a striding horse with the right front foot resting on a symbolic head of the Rhine, this would account for only 3 leg supports.  Although nearby, this was not that statue's location.

  Also Statius mentions this statue's massive base, so there would be no need or logical reason to support the horse's legs thru the base, then thru 1.5m of stone blocks and into a concrete base.

Plus a recent discovery puts this concrete base during Augustus' reign (31BC-14AD).


  Also suggested is that these were support holes for poles displaying trophies or something else that poles could do.
 It would seem to be an awful lot of overkill (400 cubic M of concrete & 1.5m of large stone blocks) just to put up 3 large wooden poles?

  It's likely that the 1.5m of travertine blocks were a foundation for a building (temple? gov't bldg?, shrine?, etc)?

 And the builders were perhaps concerned about the structural weakness that the abandoned tunnels might cause, so they were filled-in with concrete?


 I'm going with; Augustus puts a large heavy bldg (temple, gov't, shrine, etc) at that location which was gone by Domitian's reign (81-96AD) because it's very possible the huge equestian statue of Domitian (next site) encoached upon this area.
  All Domitian's statues were destroyed (damnito memoriae) esp this one, so now the area is back level.

  It's believed that Trajan (98-117AD) later built a bldg at this location also.


  There is also evidence for other large rectangular bases in this area either for equestrian statues or arches but 2 were for bldgs.


  Back to the 3 hollow travertine blocks with traces of bronze and carbon found within them.

 Because of the 4th hollow block mentioned below, I have to think those 3 hollow blocks might have had some ritual significance?  

Perhaps Pozzi Ritulai? Priests do a sacrifice at this bldg looking for omens or blessings at the begining of construction?
Or perhaps to appease whatever they had disturbed (see below).

Burnt offerings might leave traces of carbon?

Or perhaps they were just something structural.

 Traces of bronze; Perhaps in the making with tools of these blocks?


 Now at the eastern end of this concrete base at a slighty lower level there is another 4th hollow travertine block set into the concrete but this one had a travertine lid in place.

 Inside this travertine stone box were found small perfectly preserved clay jars/vases/pottery with sand, stone, pitch, fragments of tortoise shell and in one a small piece of quartz with alittle of gold attached. These jars date to 675-650BC.

 It is believed that when the workers were digging out this large hollow for pouring the concrete base they found these jars which were believed to be tomb funerary offerings.

  And after the job was complete they religiously reburied these jars in this travertine vault.
 

  Also the official Rome Forum guidebook mentions the ancient scholar Varro who believed *this*? was the ancient cult area established by the 2nd King Numa Pompilius (715BC) where sacred objects belonging to him were buried.
 Which would mean that it was excavated during Augustus' early reign because Varro died in 27BC.

 Which seems to me; They found some common funerary objects which the Forum has alot of and automatically connect them to a King because they are ancient and they must be his?
Some archaeologists/historians do this today because that is what they *want* to find also for PR, status and funding .


 Also this Hole is wrongly ID'ed as the *Vestal Virgin's* 'Doliola' (place of jars).

 Their Doliola was where the Vestals buried the Palladium and sacred relics in terra-cotta jars when fleeing the Gallic invasion of Rome.
 But that site is recorded by ancient writers to be south of the Roman Forum (Forum Boarium area).

This site can be called a Doliola because of the jars in the 4th travertine hollow but not *the* Doliola of the Vestal Virgins.
  

Now during this 1903/4 excavation of this site the bodies of a man and woman from the 7thC BC were found (~3-5m from the NE corner of the Hole.

 Their burial contained no funerary equipment like at many other burial sites in the Forum during that time period.
It was only them and it's concluded that they were both a expiatory human sacrifice.

 Their remains are now in the Forum Museum (Antiquarium Forense) Room 3, the room with the large lead container in the center.

 I recall that both have a finger-size hole in their head which was possibly how they were executed?

 I wonder, human sacrifice to request something or appease the Gods is very possible but I wonder if it also might have been a criminal execution for committing a capital crime (murder, treason, heresy, forbidden love {adultery, incest, etc} )?


 Also I mentioned this before; Between this Hole and the Column Bases a (radar?) sounding was done. And 6m below an image of a man, woman and child's skeletons were seen, they were apparently bound together and thrown into this (pre-drained) marsh and drowned. They are also believed to be a human sacrifice.

ParadiseLost

#17.6 EQUESTIAN STATUE OF DOMITIAN

On the leftside or northside of this Hole and sllghtly overlapping this hole was the site of what is believed to be the removed monument of the bronze equestrian statue of Domitian (Equus Domitiani).


At that location there is a rectangle of blocks (7.8m x 12.2m) in the Forum pavement.

  And below that a concrete base but unlike the Hole's concrete base this base doesn't block the Gladiator's tunnels.

 This formed the foundation for the large pedestal that supported the huge Domitian equestian statue.

 Also Domitian wanted to show that he had a bigger one than Julius Caesar .
Caesar had a large equestian statue in the nearby Forum of Caesar.


 Statius mentions the "massive base" which I assume to mean it was very high.

The statue faced east with his horse striding forward (one leg in the air), Domitian in military uniform with General's cloak and sword, on his left hand was a figure of Minerva holding a shield and his right hand was extended in a gesture of peace.


This bronze statue was put there in 91AD in honor of Domitian's campaign in Germany.

  In 96AD Domitian is assassinated and the Senate decreed a 'damnatio memoriae' on him.

 The statue is destroyed and the pedestal is very likely removed.


  There is an ancient urban legend that his widow collected pieces of a smashed statue of her husband and had them pieced back together.
 She then had the statue erected on the Clivus Capitolinus in full view of the Senate House (Curia).
  Very very unlikely with a damnatio memoriae against him plus his loving wife was in on his assassination.

  And even if true it would not have been this huge equestian statue as it is sometimes suggested.

But that is not to say that this urban legend isn't based on some facts.

Procopius ~550AD writing in his Anecdota (Secret History) says that there was a pieced together bronze statue in that location during his lifetime which he says was Domitian (or was this just part of the urban legend? ) .

  So the statue seems to be a fact and this is the urban legend to explain it in his lifetime?


"...the Senate passed a decree that not even the name of this emperor should remain in inscriptions, nor any statue or portrait of him be preserved.

Cerainly from the inscriptions everywhere in Rome, and wherever else his name had been inscribed, it was chiselled out, as can still be seen, leaving all the rest intact; and nowhere in the Roman Empire is there a single likeness of him except for a solitary bronze statue, which survived in the following way.

Domitian's consort was a woman of good birth, and highly respected, who had herself never done the least wrong to any man alive, or approved a single one of her husband's actions. So she was very highly esteemed, and the Senate at this time sent for her and invited her to ask for anything she liked. She made only one request--that she might take Domitian's body and bury it, and set up a bronze statue of him in a place of her own choosing. The Senate agreed to this; and the widow, wishing to leave to later generations a monument to the inhumanity of those who had carved up her husband, devised the following plan.

Having collected Domitian's flesh, she put the pieces together carefully and fitted them to each other; then she stitched the whole body together and showed it to the sculptors, asking them to make a bronze statue portraying the tragic end of the dead man.

The artists produced the statue without loss of time; and the widow took it and erected it in the street that leads up to the Capitol, on the right-hand side as you go there from the Forum: it showed the appearance and the tragic end of Domitian, and does so to this day."

ParadiseLost

I'm having a very hard time posting to this thread with WebTv (too lazy to learn the computer ).

So I am going to start posting on the 'Part 2' part of this thread which is at http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35149381 OR
http://tinyurl.com/5e4f4s
Regards, Walter

p.s. Soon I'll get a scary computer and resume the walk on this thread also.

starwhite2

"There are twin Gates of War, for by that name men call them and they are hallowed by men's awe and the dread presence of heartless Mars. A hundred bars of bronze and iron's tough, everlasting strength, close them, and Janus, never moving from that threshold, is their guard. When the senators have irrevocably decided for battle, the consul himself, a figure conspicuous in Quirine Toga of State and Gabine Cincture, unbolts these gates, and their hinge-posts groan, it is he who calls the fighting forth, then the rest of their manhood follows, and the bronze horns, in hoarse assent, add their breath". [Later he writes about closing the doors] "The terrible iron-constricted Gates of War shall shut and safe within them shall stay the godless and ghastly Lust of Blood, propped on his pitiless piled armory, and still roaring from gory mouth, but held fast by a hundred chains of bronze knotted behind his back".

from Aeneid VII. 601-640 It is so joyful to see Virgil quoted. I have this in Latin somewhere.

...there are twin gates of War (so they are named),

sanctified by religion, and by dread of fierce Mars:

a hundred bars of bronze, and iron’s eternal strength,

lock them, and Janus the guardian never leaves the threshold.

When the final decision of the city fathers is for battle,

the Consul himself, dressed in the Quirine toga, folded

in the Gabine manner, unbars these groaning doors, himself,

and himself invokes the battle: then the rest of the men

do so too, and bronze horns breathe their hoarse assent.

Latinus was also commanded to declare war in this way

on Aeneas’s people, and unbolt the sad gates,

Snowflake25

bookmarking

hikrchick

me too. can't wait to go to the Forum and see what I learned about during 4 years of Latin in High School.