Is it frowned upon to order the antipasti & primi/pasta course without ordering a meat/fish course (or vice versa -- antipasti & meat/fish with no primi/pasta course?) What is the etiquette regarding this? Does it depend on the type of restaurant -- casual v. upscale/formal?

Most Italian restaurants no longer expect you to have all the courses, from antipasto through primo piatto (generally pasta) to secondo piatto (meat or fish) and ending with dolce (dessert). Feel free to choose the courses you want, and do bear in mind that in most Italian restaurants the meat or fish is precisely that: meat or fish. If you want something with it -- a vegetable or a salad -- it has to be ordered separately and is listed under "contorni."

I do think, however, that Rick Steves' penny-pinching advice to save money by each having a salad and splitting a secondo should be ignored. Italian restaurants -- from the more humble trattorie to the more elegant and costly ristoranti -- are full-service restaurants; they are not snack bars. Why anyone would follow Rick Steves' advice and try to do in an Italian restaurant what he or she would never think of doing in a full-service American restaurant is beyond me...

But to return to your question: It is fully acceptable to have an antipasto and a primo or a secondo piatto, even in a more formal restaurant. I've seen many Italians do it.

Really good (and I'm not just talking about the food quality) in both Italy AND the US will, ultimately, cater to their guest's needs and not the other way around. Order as you wish and don't be afraid to ask for something even if it isn't on the menu..sometimes you'll actually get it.

I was once told that it wasn't "polite" to ask for ice in an italian restaurant because it wasn't the "accepted" practice but I did so anyway and without exception the wait staff were happy to oblige.

Have a wonderful trip and enoy the food!

My dear, you're paying for the meal, order what you'd like to order. However, splitting courses isn't socially acceptable, it implies that you cannot afford to have one each. Order something, leave what you can't eat.

"Upscale" restaurants usually have a tasting menu. I enjoy these as you can experience many more dishes in smaller portions. They're always good value for money too.

If it's a casual restaurant, it'll be cheap anyway so do as you please!

topman...it's hard to disagree with what you say.

however, there is a protocol to eating (whether you agree there should be or not, there is). when following this protocol, the experience is smoother. a good waiter in a good restaurant loves to wait on an experienced diner who, while may be demanding, knows "the drill".

As you say, a fine restaurant should deal with the odd guest who wants to drink coffee WITH his meal or

topman...it's hard to disagree with what you say.

however, there is a protocol to eating (whether you agree there should be or not, there is). when following this protocol, the experience is smoother. a good waiter in a good restaurant loves to wait on an experienced diner who, while may be demanding, knows "the drill".

As you say, a fine restaurant should deal gracefully with the odd guest who wants to drink coffee WITH his meal or eat the desert before the main. just keep in mind that you are throwing off the dance between the guest and server and likely to receive less smooth service, regardless of the restaurant.

Also keep in mind that if dining with other people, your odd request may upset the natural flow and timing of the meal for the other people at your table as well.

And, no, i don't think ice in the drink falls into the kind of "odd request" that i'm talking about.

a point for the main post...it's also regional...for example, in venice, no such rules apply.

"My dear, you're paying"

I am always dismayed to see money as a rationale for bending the social rules. While I do not disagree with the rest of that particular post, too often "tourists" feel their American Express card is a free pass to very rude behavior in countries other than their own.

If one wished to bend the dining rules because they are civil human beings and thus entitled to make a polite request, then so be it. But please -- no flaunting of the rapidly deflating dollar.

I have never, in 40 years, found any restaurant in Italy, at any level, indicating that they "expected" anything of a guest, except to pay the bill - and only then when the guest requrested it.

Nor any restaurant indicating even the faintest surprise at anything a guest requested.

Order precisely what you feel comfortable with, has always been the Italian rule. As I recall, the sainted Elizabeth David commented on this as one of the great hallmarks of Italian civility.

I would say that there is only one fail-safe rule-of-thumb in travel, and in life itself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I work in a service business myself. My clients make "out of the ordinary" requests of me every single day, and I am happy to oblige. So if I go to a restaurant and ask for exactly what I want on their menu, and I am willing to pay for it, I feel no shame whatsoever in expecting them to do the same.

A good restaurant should always be happy to serve a friendly, paying customer.

Well, those poor souls who try to order cheese on their fish might be the exception to that rule! Seriously, courtesy and ordering a meal, as opposed to each person ordering one course and "sharing" to save money, should be enough for any restaurant. Although I notice many restaurants don't mind the "sharing" concept when it comes to the dolce following a meal. After all, in most cases you have the table for as long as you care to remain....no built in table turnover. So, as others have said, you don't need to order every course that is offered. Either of your scenarios should be just fine. Italians are eating lighter these days, too. Fortunately, though, I've noticed their portions usually are much more manageable than we find here in the US...no silly "supersizing." There may be times when you want to order more than you expected....just look around at the plates of fellow diners to get an idea of what to expect in that regard.

i remember this discussion last year. we respectfully follow the custom of the country we are visiting.

I was never in a place that expected you to order every course. I do not think I could eat that much in one sitting. My partner and I were taken out by italian Business colleagues in Milan and it was explained to us what the courses were and that we could choose an antipasti or just have a pasta and then the mains etc. He was German (Everyone else was Italian) and it was our introduction to eating in Italy as it was our first trip.

I have often just ordered a starter orsmall pasta as I did not ewant a full meal asn my partner ordered a main course. No one batted and eye and it was fine like in any other country. SHaring is another satory and I think if you are in a more upmarket restairant this is inappropriate. Go and savoury the food and pinch pennies elsewhere or oder a starter instead of a main.

Hey, what's wrong with cheese on fish? Fish sticks and Velveeta--mmmmmmmmm.

Rufus,

When I stop gagging, I'll tell you.

Hi aw,

>Is it frowned upon to order the antipasti & primi/pasta course without ordering [a secondo].<

No, it is not. Most of our meals were an antipasto and a primo.

Wow! It is so cool to check back in & find so many helpful replies!

I thought it would be fine, and I'm sure we will want to order several courses at some meals. But since this is our first trip to Italy, I thought I would just confirm it. Thanks for the advice, and don't worry, I don't like sharing meals, so my inquery was not regarding that.

Flanneruk, Elizabeth David is my alltime favorite food writer. She was a fascinating woman. I'm going to get out her Italy book right now and reread it! Thanks for the mention of her!

Eloise,
"she would never think of doing in a full-service American restaurant is beyond me..."
I would dream of splitting a plate with a friend at a full-service American restaurant. The portions are usaully large enough to feed two people. Why should anyone order and eat more food then they need in order to impress the waitstaff? Yet, I don't mind impressing them with a generous tip for the service that I want.

We went to Italy in May - my kids and I usually just had antipasta and primo - the times we also splurged on secundo, my daughter and I shared the pasta and the waiters would always nod as though this was perfectly acceptable and even serve the pasta to us on two plates. And we often shared pizza as well.

Joelle

Mcgeezer:

As someone else in this thread has already pointed out, Italian restaurants are not victims of the gigantism -- the "supersize" syndrome --that characterizes many American restaurants. As you yourself state: "The portions are usually large enough to feed two people."

No one is asking you to eat more than you wish to eat, and the objective is certainly not "to impress the waitstaff." The suggestion is, rather, to adapt to the culture of the country of which you are a guest. A paying guest, certainly, but still a guest.

And I do not think that Italian "waitstaff" (to use your PC expression; in Italy, most "waitstaff" are still (male) waiters, who are waiters by profession rather than out-of-work actors or would-be models) are as impressed by "a generous tip" as American "waitstaff." I think they are more likely to find the attempt to impress through a large tip laughable.

yes, european waiters at good restaurants are not impressed by big tips. they do not bow down and treat you like a god for giving a big tip.

Nor do they appreciate the manner in which many americans give big tips. it depends on the country but most are put off by a big showy gesture around the tip and would prefer to just slip it in the pocket without a fuss. they usually do not even give the acknowledgement of the big tip (other than the same thank you for all tips) that big tippers crave.