BritishCaicos

50% youth unemployment in Southern Europe. It needs sorting out.

Sort of situation that gives rise to extremism.

Which is the last thing Europe needs.

twk

Greece should never have been in the euro, and certainly has dug most of this hole themselves. However, Greece was bankrupt in 2010, and rather than default and take their medicine at that time, which would have endangered the European banking system that was in a very precarious position at that moment, the IMF and EU enticed Greece to do what was in their interest, rather than in the interest of the Greeks, and that was take on even more debt so as to postpone the day of reckoning. Whether that day of reckoning is now, or sometime in the future, the fact is that Greece has more debt than it can ever hope to repay.

The euro is such a poor concept (can't have a viable currency union without economies that are on the same footing, or a fiscal union), that logic would seem to suggest that it's better for Greece to leave. However, leaving the euro would be such a cataclysmic event, it's understandable that Greek voters wouldn't want to do that if it could be avoided. Realistically, Greece can't stay in the euro without debt relief, but the German electorate (and some others) might not stand for their leaders agreeing to use their tax dollars to bail Greece out (of course, they already have to an extent, but they've managed to sort of fudge that fact enough that it hasn't cost them domestically, yet).

sandralist

hetismij2,

If you think credit cards are "useless" in this situation, you really don't know what you are talking about.

As for your other uninformed opinions, and the pretense you care about Greeks.... really. About the only thing one is moved to say is ... 'bye bye. (I certainly hope Greece never models iteself on the Netherlands.)

twk

Hit return a little too quickly:

Essentially, Greece has spent the last five years doing indentured servitude for the EU and IMF. That needs to stop. Yes, they have plenty of culpability for this mess, but any other creditor nation who found themselves in the position that Greece did in 2010, would have been allowed to default (in part), devalue, and start over. That was denied to the Greeks because it wasn't in the interest of European banks or the broader European banking system.

Cowboy1968

News reports say that ECB will continue emergency payments only until Tuesday.
What happens then, no one know. Except that Greece won't get any more euros.
Banks and stock exchange will be closed tomorrow.

Reports say that ATMs ran out of cash in many places already today.

Travel advisories say that you should take credit cards AND more cash.
Greece is not exactly a cashless society, and you should not expect to be able to pay with cards at any tavern or museum. The more touristy the region is, the higher is the chance that establishments will accept credit cards.

Even with a lower limit on withdrawals one should not expect to find working ATMs and/or expect long lines and waiting times during the next days - at least.

BritishCaicos

It would appear that The Daily Mail was correct.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33300543

Greek banks will not open tomorrow and the ATMs appear to be being systematically emptied.

It would be very prudent for any international visitors to Greece in the coming in weeks to take enough cash to cover holiday expenses.

BritishCaicos

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33305019

Lovejoy

The Guardian reports that Greek banks to remain closed until July 7th.Also bank withdrawals,I assume this means ATM's, are limited to €60 a day.

clausar

The Greek Government informed that holders of credit or debit cards that are issued abroad are not subject to any limit, and can use their cards for withdrawals from ATM's or payments as usual.

twk

Seems that all those predictions about bank runs weren't off base after all.

I did see one interesting note somewhere--seems that if you are looking for an ATM with cash, the more upscale neighborhoods are your best bet. If the locals are limited to 60 euros per day, that might help make it easier for the tourists.

It will be interesting to see if bank closures interfere with credit card transactions. I could see that going either way.

sandralist

Folks, please stop fear mongering:

Greece’s finance ministry announced that withdrawal limits at ATMs would not apply to holders of credit or debit cards issued in foreign countries. Okay? Everybody understand that?

This is a travel forum. The issue for travelers is not a "bank run" in Greece. There has been an ongoing, slow-motion "bank run" in Greece since last December. And both German ministers and the Dutch ministers have been politicking to encourage it, with boat loads of lies.

The issue for travelers to Greece is that travelers and tourists can get cash out of the Greek ATMs and use credit cards for most transactions. But you cannot take wads of oash out of the country, even if you brought them in from your own home.

Heimdall

<i>"Folks, please stop fear mongering"</i>

Sandralist, as I recall, you were the one doing the "fear mongering" last winter. ;-)

BritishCaicos

And people need to be realistic.

Shopping round ATMs to find one with a stock of cash is no fun when you are supposed to be on holiday is no fun.

Taking cash is very advisable for the near future.

Ackislander

I would be delighted to borrow €1,000,000 for a year from any of you to support my lifestyle.

Of course, It would cramp my style to pay it back, so at the end of the year, I would want to negotiate a restructuring of my debt to you. Say, 80% of what I owe you but not all at once, maybe €200,000 a year over eight years.

If you are rich enough to lend me that much money, it shouldn't hurt you, right?

And I get to have my fun while I wait until something turns up, like Wilkins McCawber.

BritishCaicos

Sounds reasonable.

As long I can cope with the fact that I wll be blamed for lending you the money.

flanneruk

You might be happy with that.

But your smaller - and in some cases poorer - neighbours like O'Ireland, Cyprusides, Slovakci and Sloven will rather resent your getting away with stealing their money, after they've bailed themselves out of just as tough a situation while you continued to thumb your nose at your creditors.

And the other 500 million people you're planning to welch on are going to be annoyed enough at your posturings about democracy that they'll probably dismiss any negotiators listening to more of your excuses.

You weren't interested in their democratic views when you decided to fritter their money away on yachts for your plutocrats. Or when you spent the past 7 years doing nothing but bleat.

clausar

flanneruk

You deserve an answer in Greek, but I am sure, it will be deleted by the admins !!!!

sandralist

And I am informed myself and learned.

sandralist

Sorry! That came out garbled

Het, I read up and learned the facts. You can do it too. Ackislander, I have no idea who you think you are talking to, but if your arrogant ignorance is directed at ordinary Greeks who were robbed by crooks, shame on you.

Clausar,

Flanneruk never deserves an answer, but If you mean that comment about what the British royal family is good for, you're right. It would get deleted in any language!!! (Funny as it is.)

sandralist

I'm really posting this link for Clausar, who is probably the only person with the intellectual curiosity to read it, but I will pull out the quotes that are relevant to this thread for others who might care to learn.

This was written today by Frances Coppola in Forbes, from an article entitled "The Day the Euro Died" about events of this weekend:

"Meanwhile, the world’s media, supported by a succession of leaks from “unnamed sources”, was speculating that the imminent expiry of the existing bailout program would force the ECB to end ELA funding of Greece’s banks, resulting in closure of the banks and capital controls. Unsurprisingly, withdrawals from Greek ATMs increased.

The last and most damaging of the leaks was given to Robert Peston of the BBC on the morning of Sunday June 28th. The choice of both media institution and reporter is significant: Robert Peston’s reporting of Northern Rock’s liquidity problems in September 2007 famously caused a run on the bank. And Peston did it again. He reported IN ADVANCE of the ECB governing council’s decision that the ECB was going to “turn off” ELA. By the time the ECB announced its decision, some hours later, Greek ATMs were rapidly running out of cash.

Where the leak to Robert Peston came from we do not know. But front-running the ECB governing council’s decision is tantamount to spreading rumors to start a bank run, which is illegal in most Eurozone countries (though apparently not in Germany). And since the Eurosystem is responsible for ensuring financial stability, deliberately starting a bank run is a major breach of the mandate of both the ECB and the national central banks. Whoever leaked this should be summarily dismissed.

Anyway, wherever it came from, it was clearly intended to force Greece to impose a bank holiday and capital controls. And it achieved its objective...

Had there been no bank run, the decision of the ECB to freeze ELA at Friday’s level would not have caused major problems for Greek banks. But a bank run requires liquidity to be increased, not maintained. Closing the banks and imposing capital controls therefore became the only possible course of action. And it was duly announced by the Greek Prime Minister on Sunday evening.

Greek banks will remain closed until after the referendum and possibly longer. The amount of money Greeks can take out of ATMs is limited to 60 EUR per card per day, although holders of foreign bank cards are exempt from this limit – this is to protect Greece’s important tourism industry. And there are controls on the movement of money across Greece’s borders. The consequences for the Greek economy will be serious: tourists are already cancelling holidays and the money limits for Greeks will force them to cut spending. Businesses, deprived of access to funds for essential cross-border payments, may go out of business.

What has happened to Greece will be seen by many as due to incompetence and intransigence by the inexperienced Greek government. And it is true that they have made mistakes. They underestimated the determination of the creditor side to enforce existing agreements, and they acted at times in a less than diplomatic manner, angering the other side and making an agreement less likely. But more importantly, the Greek government failed to appreciate that the EU negotiators are not fundamentally concerned about restoring the Greek economy or enabling it to pay its debts. They are only interested in furthering the European project. Overturning the existing agreement and giving in to Greek demands would open the door to similar demands from other distressed Eurozone nations, notably Spain. The shadow hanging over the EU negotiators is Spain’s Podemos party.

But for my money, the bigger fault lies on the creditor side. The fact is that the existing program has abjectly failed to meet its objectives: it has caused a depression in Greece of a similar order to that in the US in the 1930s, while failing to deliver either debt sustainability or renewed competitiveness. Yet the creditors have steadfastly resisted significant changes: in particular, despite the attempts by both Greece and the IMF to put debt restructuring on the agenda, the EU has refused even to consider it. The IMF, too, has displayed considerable intransigence: the Greek side actually walked out over the IMF’s insistence on pension cuts and VAT rises."


Anyway, for Clausar and anyone else interested in facts, here's the whole article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francesc...the-euro-died/