I am spending 4 weeks in Europe this Jul with my wife and 3 teenagers. All travel is by train. My itinary is below, how would you change it if you were doing the trip? Arrive Brussels & go to London for 3 days. Go to Paris for 3.5 days. One day in Lyon (or somewhere else) on the way to Nice (1.5 days in Nice, anyplace better on the Riveria?). Stop in Milan for the day. Go to Rome for 5 days (one day for Pompei). Three days in Florence (1 day for Piza). Venice for 1.5 days. Go to Switzerland for 2 days (want to hike 1 day, what about the second day?). Go back to Paris for 1/2 day. Return to Brussels to fly home. What would you change? Should I go to Munich, etc.? First time with family to Europe.

well, if it were me I'd go fewer places. But you're not me, so your itinerary looks pretty good! Minor suggestions: from all I've heard, Pisa is not worth the day trip. Skip that and take that day from Florence to go to Siena or San Gimignano. Maybe you can get the kids as interested in the 14 towers at San Gim. as they are in the ONE at Pisa?? And I wouldn't bother with that last half day in Paris, I would go back to Brussels and take it easy before flying home. You're going to be very tired after tramping about Europe for 4 weeks.

<BR>Frank - I agree with Beth about skipping Pisa and seeing San Gimignano instead (and see the movie "Tea with Mussolini" first!). Also try to spend more time in Switzerland if you can. <BR>Be flexible in your itinerary, you are seeing so much and there will be places you run into and want to stay, or decide to stay longer at a specific spot.

Frank, <BR>You didn't say where in Switzerland you will be, but my suggestion is to skip Zurich (boring business town) and see Lucerne. Great shopping, great restaurants, and just plain nice.

Frank, <BR>I think you may be overly ambitious in all you're trying to see, despite the length of time you'll be in Europe. I wonder if in your planning you've considered the travel time involved in your itinerary and how that time will bite into your sightseeing. Here are some thoughts for you to consider, nevertheless. Florence merits more than two days, Venice more than a day and a half. I'd seriously consider dropping London from your itinerary and adding a day to Florence and Venice. The third day saved from London should be devoted to Brugges, Belgium, a stunning small city only an hour's ride from Brussels. I don't know what your intent is in staying in Milan for a full day; you might want to consider one of the villages on Lake Como instead, Bellagio, for example. From there you can take ferry trips all over the lake and make excursions into Switzerland, returning to the same bed each evening. Settling in Lake Como for three days appeals as a pleasant extended respite following overnighters in Lyon and Nice. Beth's recommendation to return directly to Brussels rather than to Brussels via Paris is a wise one; you'll be far less harried by doing so.

Another vote for staying in a few locations longer and for making few day trips. I have never travelled in Europe as part of a group of five, but it seems to me the logistics of getting everyone packed up an on to the next location are not more of a challenge than the results warrant. A couple of stops on your list seem worth dropping entirely, at least for this trip: Lyon and Milan. The trip from Paris to Nice is a full day (7 hrs) on the train, but I don't know that breaking it up helps much. If you like Italy, you'll probably fly in and out of Milan future trips. See it then. <BR>Hope this doesn't sound too opinionated--I'll never be the next Beth, I guess.

Your draft itinerary, Frank, shows that your main destination is Italy with the insertion of London, Paris and some of France, and some of Switzerland. Brussels apperas to be there just because of your flight. I agree with the points made by Wes and would like to expand a bit. If there isn't a very strong reason to go to London, it would also be my first candidate city to be axed. The same with Milan. I also wouldn't include Nice (in July it's crowded, hot, ...) unless I had no other option. Since you've 3 teenagers along, you should try to balance your trip to fit their "interest" as well. As Wes pointed out, Brugges fits in naturally. Of course, in Tuscany, San G and Siena would also fit the bill. In France, the Loire Valley chateaux are also teenager choices. In Germany, Rothenburg would be my first choice ... but its train connections are not that good. Finally, I would minimize packing/unpacking operations and would consider taking night trains here and there. <BR> <BR>Most probably, my itinerary would look something like: <BR> <BR>Bruxelles to Brugge (night) <BR>Brugge to Paris (6 nights) day trip to Versailles and Chartres <BR>Paris to Venice (overnight train + 2 nights - 3 if possible) <BR>Venice to Florence (3 nights) <BR>Florence to Siena (2 nights) day trip to San G. <BR>Siena to Rome (5 nights) <BR>Rome to Como (3 nights) <BR>Como to Bruxelles (overnight train) <BR> <BR>This would add up to 24 nights, most probably giving you still a couple to play with (e.g., to include Tours and the Loire Valley). It would also depend on arrival/departure times of your flight. If there's time, the Como-Bruxelles trip could involve a stop in Heidelberg (castle, boat trip, etc.) or somewhere in the Rhein or even an "awkward" stop at Rothenburg ... <BR> <BR>From Siena I would eventually visit San G. by bus. There are organized bus daytrips out from Florence to San G. and Siena but I wouldn't recommend them. One could eventually visit San G. or Siena out of Florence on one's own (taking the SITA bus). Also, the train trip to/from Siena is kind of awkward (train station outside Siena city walls, train to Rome calling for a change in Chiusi). Nevertheless, I (and my teenage daughters) do have a Siena bias and wouldn't do without it <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

Firstly, most everywhere your going will be crowded, seat reservations for the trains are highly recommended. I'm in agreement with skipping Lyon, Milan and Pisa (you can see the tower from the train, sit on the left side). I'd stop in LaSpezia and hike the Cinque Terre. Siena would be on my list. You've got a very ambitious itinerary planned, give yourself some room for unexpected things, train strikes e.g.

Frank: How great that you and your family are doing this trip together! <BR>First, yes, there are nicer places on the Riviera than Nice. To my mother's dismay, I insisted on including Nice on my first trip to Europe as well and while I loved the Cote d'Azur as a whole, Nice itself wasn't that great. One reason so many people stay in Nice when exploring the Riviera is that it is a good location to use as a "home base" for exploring neighboring towns -- but you're not going to be on the Riviera long enough to use it as a base for exploring other places, so by all means pick the most agreeable town and make the most of it for at least a couple of days. My favorite was Antibes, which has an incredible Picasso museum that was the highlight of one of my trips -- perched right on the edge of the Mediterranean. But do a little reading on the region and read some of the other posts about the Cote d'Azur and see what you think. To me, Nice was somewhat of a letdown -- rocky uncomfortable beach, dirty, crowded, etc. But that's just me. <BR>Second, I agree with the previous poster about not going back to Paris for a half-day at the end -- by all means spend more time in Paris, but there is no point in going all that way for a half day -- just go straight from wherever you are in Switzerland back to Brussels and either see a few hours' worth of what Brussels has to offer or rest up for the trip home because you're going to be exhausted. <BR>Now, third and most importantly: I understand the urge to start in London; I did the same on both my trips to Europe -- starting in an English-speaking place can be a good way to ease into the "foreignness" of a strange continent. Nevertheless, since you have so little time and want to see so many places, and are flying into Belgium, I would strongly urge you to drop London from your itinerary and also drop Lyon and (most definitely) Milan. (Save London for another trip when you can see more of England.) That basically frees up 5 extra days for you to allocate elsewhere, and here is what I would advise you to do with them: don't add Munich or any additional destinations -- you have plenty on your plate! Instead, add 1-1.5 more in Paris, 1-1.5 more on the Riviera (if you decide to keep that on your itinerary -- although I agree with the previous poster that the Loire Valley and its chateaux would make a nice substitute -- but maybe the Riviera suits the teens better and you and your wife and save the Loire for another trip), 1-1.5 more in Venice, and one more day in Switzerland. Here is a good rule of thumb: don't go anywhere for less than 2 nights/2 days! Actually I try to spend at least 3 nights in each destination because that means at least two full days there. Otherwise you won't have enough time to appreciate anything and you'll just be exhausted. <BR>Fourth: if you're looking for someplace in Switzerland to do some hiking, the small city I enjoyed is Lugano, in the south, near Italy. It is very picturesque and charming. <BR>Fifth, I agree that if you only have three days to spend in Florence, you will need all of them to see what Florence has to offer and had better leave out Pisa. <BR>Good luck and have a terrific time!

I guess I'll come to Pisa's defense on this thread. I think it makes a great after lunch day trip and you're back in Florence for dinner. It's ~1hr by train or take the tour bus trip. Which leaves ~2pm, has a 2hr guided tour of Pisa and has you back in Florence by ~7pm. The area has alot of history and the Duomo is breathtaking. The Tower is a touristy site but it is also very beautiful and was built over 800 yrs ago. Regards, Walter <BR>

When you say "hiking in Switzerland" I am not sure what you mean. I started hiking there once and stayed at it for 2 weeks until my feet were so sore I had to quit. But if by "hiking" you mean going along a mountain trail then I have two great ones to suggest: <BR>From Grindelwald take the gondola to the First station. (No it is not the 1st one you come to; First is the name.) <BR>Then walk to the Faulhorn mountain hotel. The whole of the Berner Oberland wall is in front of you on the return hike. From Zermatt, take the Gornergrat train to Rotenboden, and then walk the Gornergrat to the end of the train line. I suggest that direction because the Matterhorn is to your right and Monte Rosa and the glaciers immediately in front of you. <BR> <BR>Alternatively, take one of the trails toward the Matterhorn. Awesome! <BR>If you are not into walking, then ride the train anyhow. The views are great. <BR> <BR>Interesting, some of the other comments you got. I personally would chop out the Italian stuff and spend more time in London. And you may find 3.5 days in Paris to stretch it thin. <BR>

Frank - <BR> <BR>A simple suggestion from someone who just took 19 and 18 year-olds to Paris... <BR> <BR>Plan "separate time" for you and your wife away from the kids. You will thank yourself and your kids will love you. What we did on our recent trip was scheduled 1 or 2 sites or museums for the morning and early afternoon and then by 2 pm it was free time. We had a vacation together as a family but still had enough time apart not to get on each others nerves too much. <BR> <BR>Also, I too would do a little less than you have planned. And that's coming from someone who usually does more on one trip than most people on this site think is a good idea. My husband and I are action junkies and we go, go, go all the time. But even I would hesitate to tackle your itenerary. And please, spend at least 5 days in Paris, you'll need it. <BR> <BR

I will be much lazier than previous respondents that tried to go into the overall balance of your itinerary (it's true that's a bit much, but better some than none ! ). Just for the French part : if you have to choose a stop on the Riviera, maybe Cannes would be more accessible : it's a smallish town, everything can be done by foot, including getting to your hotel from the station, then going to the beach. It's got the "luxury" side of Nice but with real sand beaches, and a nicer atmosphere. But of course without the artsy ambience of Antibes. If you want to stop between Paris and the Riviera, I would recommend you take a day TGV and spend one day in Avignon (3h 1/2 from Paris) : it's a nice provençal atmosphere, great art town, and, again, everything is within walking distance. One plus, or minus depending on your mood : you'll be in the middle of the Festival d'Avignon, the biggest theater festival in the world. Which means great party atmosphere, but a need to book ahead. BTW, ditto with Cannes, because of the high season.

Frank-I defintely would suggest taking your teenagers to Pisa! Despite everyone's love affair with Siena-on our recent trip back to Italy in April my two teenagers insisted that we take the train the first day(staying in Florence) for the ride to Pisa. Yes, it is touristy;yes it can be crowded but the pictures we took and the first glance that they saw of it after going through the archway was "Whoa!"(My two kids,ages 14 and 16 years have traveled extensively through Europe) <BR>but the guick morning trip to Pisa was the perfect thing to do and still get back to Florence to eat gelatto and sightsee. I agree with others that you are trying to do to many cities in four weeks(it sounds like a sequel to "If this is Tuesday,this must be Belgium!" movie. London and the UK is definitely its own trip for next time.I would add more time to Venice as the water buses out to Burano and Murano and the Lido islands for family pass daily was one of the highlights to my kids. If you want any extra tips for Nice, Paris,etc. email me privately as we have been to lots of places with our teenagers and I would be happy to share what made some great family memories! Debbie Email at [email protected] <BR>

I was recently in Italy with my family and my children a little younger than yours, really enjoyed Pisa. Yes, it is very touristy but it is one of the things my kids knew about in advance and expressed an interest in seeing. There can be many things that kids find boring so its nice to do something that you know they'll remember. Plan to see the entire area around the tower, the Cathedral, the Baptistry and the Camposanto. Your trip seems overly ambitious to me. A day stop in Lyons between Paris and Nice winds up amounting to very little time there, what with packing & unpacking. It's worth either seeing it in a relaxed fashion or tagging a day onto another desination to do a comfortable day trip - perhaps to see both Pisa on one day and San Gimiginano the next!