Recent experience re: CDG security
Oct 30th, 2006, 12:46 PM
#21
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ira. I suppose the people at H-J Atlanta must be paranoid. I have flown hundreds of times, dozens of times to America included, and never been asked to remove my shoes.
The wikipedia (said to be as accurate as listening to a man down the pub, by the British press) article merely mentioned plans for a liquid bomb yet in ten years after that, no muslim terrorist actually used one, so maybe it was a lie, or the bomb did not work? So, NO! The other bomb in the article merely contained acetone as one of a number of ingredients.
If you want to bring a plane down, it does not need any fancy bombs or anything else. You just need a few men to hold the others back while you open a main door to the aircraft. Where do you draw a sensible line on what just might happen on November 32nd or real life?
Note. On one trip to Mexico some years ago, we had to get off with our hand baggage in Orlando and wait in the terminal between flights. People going out into the street, having been through checks at Heathrow and having flown across the Atlantic were then searched and had their bags x-rayed before being allowed onto the streets of America. Dumb-de-dumb-dumb!
Did you know that there are millimetre wave machines at Heathrow? Walk through one and it effectively removes your clothes so anything hidden can be seen. Customs were told that the machine came with models on which the passenger details could be super-imposed on but they did not want that. Now customs men get to gloat over naked images of little children as they walk through the machine. I haven't heard of any images from these machines on the net yet but I bet they are there somewhere, from what the customs men have saved for themselves.
The wikipedia (said to be as accurate as listening to a man down the pub, by the British press) article merely mentioned plans for a liquid bomb yet in ten years after that, no muslim terrorist actually used one, so maybe it was a lie, or the bomb did not work? So, NO! The other bomb in the article merely contained acetone as one of a number of ingredients.
If you want to bring a plane down, it does not need any fancy bombs or anything else. You just need a few men to hold the others back while you open a main door to the aircraft. Where do you draw a sensible line on what just might happen on November 32nd or real life?
Note. On one trip to Mexico some years ago, we had to get off with our hand baggage in Orlando and wait in the terminal between flights. People going out into the street, having been through checks at Heathrow and having flown across the Atlantic were then searched and had their bags x-rayed before being allowed onto the streets of America. Dumb-de-dumb-dumb!
Did you know that there are millimetre wave machines at Heathrow? Walk through one and it effectively removes your clothes so anything hidden can be seen. Customs were told that the machine came with models on which the passenger details could be super-imposed on but they did not want that. Now customs men get to gloat over naked images of little children as they walk through the machine. I haven't heard of any images from these machines on the net yet but I bet they are there somewhere, from what the customs men have saved for themselves.
Oct 30th, 2006, 01:47 PM
#22
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Hi kaneda,
ira wasn't exagerating nor is the shoe scanning limited to Atlanta. It was more or less standard practice in virtually ALL U.S. airports for several years and has only recently been relaxed. I used to fly weekly for work and the the only airport that didn't enforce the shoe removal rule consistently was Springfield, Missouri. Every other one of the dozens I flew in and out of made everyone remove their shoes so they could be scanned.
ira wasn't exagerating nor is the shoe scanning limited to Atlanta. It was more or less standard practice in virtually ALL U.S. airports for several years and has only recently been relaxed. I used to fly weekly for work and the the only airport that didn't enforce the shoe removal rule consistently was Springfield, Missouri. Every other one of the dozens I flew in and out of made everyone remove their shoes so they could be scanned.
Oct 30th, 2006, 01:55 PM
#23
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Well, I connected at CDG to an Atlanta flight (Delta) on Oct. 2, and the security was so tight and time consuming that (1) I actually questioned whether traveling was worth it, and (2) they held our flight for 45 minutes for all the people who were stuck in the security process to get through and to our plane.
The connection took nearly 2 hours from touchdown of first plane to boarding second plane. And, yes, every passenger at CDG had to remove shoes for screening.
The connection took nearly 2 hours from touchdown of first plane to boarding second plane. And, yes, every passenger at CDG had to remove shoes for screening.
Oct 30th, 2006, 02:33 PM
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We flew CDG to JFK on Oct 19 and had an absolutely lovely time with security -
- First of all... on the way over JFK no longer cares about cuticle scissors. Well..The French still do.I forgot and had them in my carry on and had to dig thru and unload all to fiind them. I was fit to be tied but eventually ended up laughing with the screener. Not so funny was my husband's experience. He's 80 with a pacemaker. Guy at security had trouble with the ID card provided by the manufacturer. My husband offered to take off his shirt to show the implant... but no... I had to retrieve my carry on that had already been checked thru and pull out the information I carry for doctors' reference if ever needed. Lots of security is crazy but I found that just nuts. My husband with his fragile physique and Brooks Brs. clothes looks as much like a terrorist as
Prince Philip. We were flying Bus Class but boarding was underway by the time we were thru security ( and the buses, etc., etc.)
- First of all... on the way over JFK no longer cares about cuticle scissors. Well..The French still do.I forgot and had them in my carry on and had to dig thru and unload all to fiind them. I was fit to be tied but eventually ended up laughing with the screener. Not so funny was my husband's experience. He's 80 with a pacemaker. Guy at security had trouble with the ID card provided by the manufacturer. My husband offered to take off his shirt to show the implant... but no... I had to retrieve my carry on that had already been checked thru and pull out the information I carry for doctors' reference if ever needed. Lots of security is crazy but I found that just nuts. My husband with his fragile physique and Brooks Brs. clothes looks as much like a terrorist asPrince Philip. We were flying Bus Class but boarding was underway by the time we were thru security ( and the buses, etc., etc.)
Oct 30th, 2006, 02:52 PM
#26
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Ah, the Oplan Bojinka entry on Wikipedia? I happen to know a little about that, in fact, I posted about it here (with Wikipedia cite) this past August, when the British bomb plot was made public.
I can assure you that the Wikipedia entry on the Bojinka plot is not only accurate, but is taken directly from the transcripts of the Ramzi Youssef trial in New York-Ramzi Youssef was the mastermind of Bojinka, and Bojinka, if you read the 9/11 Report, inspired the 9/11 hijackers in part to carry out the multiple bombing of US airliners-where the Bojinka plot was fortuitously disrupted, the 9/11 plot was not.
The details that are in the Bojinka entry do not even come close to giving all the chilling details-but there is enough there to make one take a deep breath and sigh of relief that it did not come to fruition (however, the Bojinka plot WOULD have been carried out by the British bombers whose conspiracy to attack civil aviation, yet again, was disrupted this past August!)
Liquid explosives used to blow up an aircraft? Yes. Ramzi Youssef had already brought the components of a bomb on board Phillipine Airways Flight 434, in 1994, assembled it in the rear lav, the bomb was placed under a seat, it went off, tearing a huge hole in the fusillage-one person dead, 10 injured, the captain heroically bringing the rest of the pax and crew down safely. That was Youssef's "test" flight for Operation Bojinka-how much explosive to use to bring down an aircraft.
A variation of the liquid explosives is the shoe bomb explosive which Richard C. Reid aka the "shoe bomber" had on American Airlines Flt. 63 from Paris to Miami. What is not generally known is that he had an accomplice with a virtually identical set of shoe bombs, who, at the last minute, decided HE didn't want to die, wasn't ready to become a martyr (but didn't give a damn about the human lives on board the a/c) so he backed out.
English, of course. He's doing a lousy 15 years in prison for his shoe bomb "remorse." Had he been apprehended here in the US (he was never in this country-was going to board a NWA flight out of Amsterdam and blow it up) he would have gotten life, without the possibility of
parole. Sajid Badat is his name.
So the moral of this post is, yes, there's a reason why airport security is so oppressive, so odious, so practically unbearable-because the alternative is worse-the public doesn't know, what I know, about other disrupted bomb plots against aviation. It's quite sobering, to say the least.
Rigorous airport/airline security and just as important, crack intelligence work is vital to not just our national security, but the world's as well-because a terrorist bombing of a civil aircraft affects the whole world, and has an indelible effect on all governments.
I can assure you that the Wikipedia entry on the Bojinka plot is not only accurate, but is taken directly from the transcripts of the Ramzi Youssef trial in New York-Ramzi Youssef was the mastermind of Bojinka, and Bojinka, if you read the 9/11 Report, inspired the 9/11 hijackers in part to carry out the multiple bombing of US airliners-where the Bojinka plot was fortuitously disrupted, the 9/11 plot was not.
The details that are in the Bojinka entry do not even come close to giving all the chilling details-but there is enough there to make one take a deep breath and sigh of relief that it did not come to fruition (however, the Bojinka plot WOULD have been carried out by the British bombers whose conspiracy to attack civil aviation, yet again, was disrupted this past August!)
Liquid explosives used to blow up an aircraft? Yes. Ramzi Youssef had already brought the components of a bomb on board Phillipine Airways Flight 434, in 1994, assembled it in the rear lav, the bomb was placed under a seat, it went off, tearing a huge hole in the fusillage-one person dead, 10 injured, the captain heroically bringing the rest of the pax and crew down safely. That was Youssef's "test" flight for Operation Bojinka-how much explosive to use to bring down an aircraft.
A variation of the liquid explosives is the shoe bomb explosive which Richard C. Reid aka the "shoe bomber" had on American Airlines Flt. 63 from Paris to Miami. What is not generally known is that he had an accomplice with a virtually identical set of shoe bombs, who, at the last minute, decided HE didn't want to die, wasn't ready to become a martyr (but didn't give a damn about the human lives on board the a/c) so he backed out.
English, of course. He's doing a lousy 15 years in prison for his shoe bomb "remorse." Had he been apprehended here in the US (he was never in this country-was going to board a NWA flight out of Amsterdam and blow it up) he would have gotten life, without the possibility of
parole. Sajid Badat is his name.
So the moral of this post is, yes, there's a reason why airport security is so oppressive, so odious, so practically unbearable-because the alternative is worse-the public doesn't know, what I know, about other disrupted bomb plots against aviation. It's quite sobering, to say the least.
Rigorous airport/airline security and just as important, crack intelligence work is vital to not just our national security, but the world's as well-because a terrorist bombing of a civil aircraft affects the whole world, and has an indelible effect on all governments.
Oct 30th, 2006, 03:41 PM
#27
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As to the shoe inspections from the US you take off your shoes. Connecting from Paris to Florence I didn't have to remove my shoes. However, from Paris to the States it was like the US with the shoes being inspected (they do offer you socks though)
Oct 30th, 2006, 04:09 PM
#29
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Oh, and a little follow up to Sajid Badat's story (this must be filed under Ripley's Believe it or Not):
Reid's accomplice shoe-bomber, sentenced to 13-15 years, was allowed in his prison cell to, and I quote, "conduct weekly prayer meetings with other prisoners" in the high security detention center, and "allowed to have an imam visit"
An explosion went off in the prison last year, 2005, and Badat is now in solitary-you see, he got re-nspired, while in prison, so he and his fellow co-conspirators fashioned a BOMB IN THEIR ENGLISH PRISON MADE OF SUGAR AND WEEDKILLER, AVAILABLE ON SITE, AND AVAILABLE TO THE PRISONERS.
Yes, all the prison officials said was that the bomb had not been smuggled in, but had been made "in-house." Very little damage, but then prison officials decided it might be a good idea to do a search.
So much for the "remorse" factor.
This situation sort of gives one an idea as why the world has a real problem with what's been going on in England for the past decade or so.
Reid's accomplice shoe-bomber, sentenced to 13-15 years, was allowed in his prison cell to, and I quote, "conduct weekly prayer meetings with other prisoners" in the high security detention center, and "allowed to have an imam visit"
An explosion went off in the prison last year, 2005, and Badat is now in solitary-you see, he got re-nspired, while in prison, so he and his fellow co-conspirators fashioned a BOMB IN THEIR ENGLISH PRISON MADE OF SUGAR AND WEEDKILLER, AVAILABLE ON SITE, AND AVAILABLE TO THE PRISONERS.
Yes, all the prison officials said was that the bomb had not been smuggled in, but had been made "in-house." Very little damage, but then prison officials decided it might be a good idea to do a search.
So much for the "remorse" factor.
This situation sort of gives one an idea as why the world has a real problem with what's been going on in England for the past decade or so.
Oct 31st, 2006, 06:15 AM
#30
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Again, I agree with GST, except that it has been going on for over 30 years.
>You just need a few men to hold the others back while you open a main door to the aircraft. <
Do you really believe that after Flight 93 the passengers will allow a small group of terrorists to take over a plane?
>You just need a few men to hold the others back while you open a main door to the aircraft. <
Do you really believe that after Flight 93 the passengers will allow a small group of terrorists to take over a plane?
Oct 31st, 2006, 06:55 AM
#31
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Ira:
As always I must agree with you.
<I would rather leave early and arrive at my destination late, than not to arrive at all>
Well said my dear! Well said!!
I personally arrive at my airports 3-5 hours before schedule on International flights. I never have a problem finding relaxing things to do to past time nor does my blood pressure SKYROCKET when delays occur. (OK slightly elevated if I think I will miss a connecting flight, thank 'God it has never happened).
My only words of advise to those who can't handle being inconvenienced:
Don't Go!
As always I must agree with you.
<I would rather leave early and arrive at my destination late, than not to arrive at all>
Well said my dear! Well said!!
I personally arrive at my airports 3-5 hours before schedule on International flights. I never have a problem finding relaxing things to do to past time nor does my blood pressure SKYROCKET when delays occur. (OK slightly elevated if I think I will miss a connecting flight, thank 'God it has never happened).
My only words of advise to those who can't handle being inconvenienced:
Don't Go!
Oct 31st, 2006, 07:34 AM
#32
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I actually feel much safer flying through/to French airports than US airports because of this security issue. It seems that they take security very seriously in France (and I am sure other nations as well) but at home here in the US I dont' feel the same sense of concern. Maybe because some don't want to be inconvenienced???
Returning from CDG in June our passports were checked 4 separate times at 4 diferent checkpoints and the intensive search in our carry ons was very time consuming but when I got to the plane I felt secure that the job had been done and I would get home safely. I had planned on doing some last minute duty free shopping since I got to the airport so early but it was not early enough. Oh well, part of the deal when you travel and again I got home safely.
Returning from CDG in June our passports were checked 4 separate times at 4 diferent checkpoints and the intensive search in our carry ons was very time consuming but when I got to the plane I felt secure that the job had been done and I would get home safely. I had planned on doing some last minute duty free shopping since I got to the airport so early but it was not early enough. Oh well, part of the deal when you travel and again I got home safely.
Oct 31st, 2006, 08:30 AM
#33
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It's nice to have confidence in airport security. Bruce Schneier's weblog:
December 20, 2004
How Not to Test Airport Security
If this were fiction, no one would believe it. From MSNBC:
Four days after police at Charles de Gaulle Airport slipped some plastic explosives into a random passenger’s bag as part of an exercise for sniffer dogs, it is still missing -- and authorities are stumped and embarrassed.
It's perfectly reasonable to plant an explosive-filled suitcase in an airport in order to test security. It is not okay to plant it in someone's bag without his knowledge and permission. (The explosive residue could remain on the suitcase long after the test, and might be picked up by one of those trace mass spectrometers that detects the chemical residue associated with bombs.) But if you are going to plant plastic explosives in the suitcase of some innocent passenger, shouldn't you at least write down which suitcase it was?
December 20, 2004
How Not to Test Airport Security
If this were fiction, no one would believe it. From MSNBC:
Four days after police at Charles de Gaulle Airport slipped some plastic explosives into a random passenger’s bag as part of an exercise for sniffer dogs, it is still missing -- and authorities are stumped and embarrassed.
It's perfectly reasonable to plant an explosive-filled suitcase in an airport in order to test security. It is not okay to plant it in someone's bag without his knowledge and permission. (The explosive residue could remain on the suitcase long after the test, and might be picked up by one of those trace mass spectrometers that detects the chemical residue associated with bombs.) But if you are going to plant plastic explosives in the suitcase of some innocent passenger, shouldn't you at least write down which suitcase it was?
Oct 31st, 2006, 09:00 AM
#34
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Similar situation here in Newark. See BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4101201.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4101201.stm
Oct 31st, 2006, 12:00 PM
#35
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Is the security check only bad if you're heading to the US and not elsewhere? It should be uniform across the board, or I guess most people only had that experience?
* Do you need to go thru security again if you're connecting to a different airline at CDG? I'll be flying Air France from Asia to Paris. And then switch to Continental to fly to the US. Do I have to go thru security again? Hope not.
* Do you need to go thru security again if you're connecting to a different airline at CDG? I'll be flying Air France from Asia to Paris. And then switch to Continental to fly to the US. Do I have to go thru security again? Hope not.
Oct 31st, 2006, 12:08 PM
#37
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Kaneda, that was nearly 2 years ago.
Yes, it is possible to sneak things through security.
It will always be possible to sneak things through security.
Will it be possible to destroy or hijack a plane with it? It is conceivable, but not very likely.
Yes, it is possible to sneak things through security.
It will always be possible to sneak things through security.
Will it be possible to destroy or hijack a plane with it? It is conceivable, but not very likely.
Oct 31st, 2006, 12:15 PM
#38
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JC, you will go through security again and possibly again before you board your flight. It is more strict on flights to the US (and to the UK too I think).
We flew Air France from Florence and connected at CDG to the States. Between terminals there was a general security check and at the gate (before you take the shuttle bus to your plane) you may be stopped for another search at random.
We flew Air France from Florence and connected at CDG to the States. Between terminals there was a general security check and at the gate (before you take the shuttle bus to your plane) you may be stopped for another search at random.
Oct 31st, 2006, 01:49 PM
#40
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I concur with Lori. Flew back from CDG to Dallas on Oct. 19. Lost track how many times I went through security. At the last check they made me throw away my FDS personal feminine spray!
I had never been to Paris previously, but when I landed at beginning of trip I was reminded of the airport in Mexico City and was really "shocked & amazed" since Paris is such a civilized place.
But my understanding is that CDG is very very old and they do not have enough gates to handle all the flights, thus the shuttle to the plane. Oh yes, that was like the 3rd shuttle of the day.
Don't get me started!
My advice is to stay communicating with your fellow travelers. I was able to figure out quite a bit just by chatting people up.
I had never been to Paris previously, but when I landed at beginning of trip I was reminded of the airport in Mexico City and was really "shocked & amazed" since Paris is such a civilized place.
But my understanding is that CDG is very very old and they do not have enough gates to handle all the flights, thus the shuttle to the plane. Oh yes, that was like the 3rd shuttle of the day.
Don't get me started!
My advice is to stay communicating with your fellow travelers. I was able to figure out quite a bit just by chatting people up.
