Piedmont_Phil

Hae a great trip, write postcards to your sister from your great adventures in London (then post here all about them).

MacSporran

Lived in Scotland and continental Europe all my life.
Society is peaceful, reasonably integrated, and freedom of expression is open to all.

Sad to say, the only country I fear is America.
Or to be more precise, I fear those Americans who use the weapon of paranoia to foster their own interests.

Go to London. It's a safe, or safer than any other major world city.

audere_est_facere

I live in London and the only muslims that ever cause me any problems are the proprietors of kebab shops and curry houses - who seem to waging a jihad on my digestive system.

lawchick

http://tinyurl.com/3ckja8

flanneruk

This thread DOES havce the potential to be seriously productive.

walkinaround has simply misread the original post - possibly because it's written in the kind of English grown ups write. Capital letters and punctuation marks no doubt confuse him, poor dear.

The post didn't ask about London's safety. Some concern about that is understandable and questions about it do usually provoke the fruitless circular arguments walkinaround describes.

Instead, the poster made the practically incredible assertion that someone living in the English countryside believes protest demonstrations by Muslims make London unsafe to go to.

And this assertion is so spectacularly absurd, there's either a serious failure by the poster or her sister to listen to what's being said, or they're talking to someone in England who's in serious need of psychological attention.

First, because demonstrations rarely turn to violence in Britain. In the past fifty years, I can think of about three people killed when demos got out of hand. People get killed when safety measures fail at stations or football grounds: when political demos go loonie, the demonstrators just break a few windows.

Second, because no Muslim demonstration has ever got to any stage of violence. Whites pissed off with Muslims, whites angry at animal experiments, mostly whites angry at nuclear weapons or local taxation or just the existence of Margaret Thatcher: all these groups have escalated demonstrations beyond chants and onto throwing things. No Muslim demo's yet got beyond telling us we'll all fry in Hell.

But third, and most crucially, because Ms F and I spend immense amounts of time on doorsteps, at hustings and coding questionnaire replies, observing what people in the English countryside are worried about. No-one has ever come anywhere near expressing fear of Muslim demonstrations. Fear of going onto the London tube, resentment of immigrants, vicious anger at the damage George W Bush is doing to everything: there's practically no emotion we've not heard.

But not even the farthest-out, get the straitjacket now and get her sectioned, fantasist has ever so much as mentioned demonstrations.

If luvlondon really is describing accurately the advice her sister's been given (which, to be honest, I strongly doubt) she and her sister really must take the woman concerned to the doctor the moment they arrive in Britain.

lawchick

It reminds me of the occasional question about the "war" in N.I.

alanRow

Last time I checked the UK was a democracy and "protest demonstrations" are allowed.

Are you sure that "lives in the countryside" isn't a euphemism for "undergoing long term psychiatric care"?

willit

Walkinaround - I partly agree with your posting, but what else should be done?

If an OP is worried about visiting a country with an overall crime rate far below that of the USA, is it therefore "Anti-American" to point that out to them ?

I find many posters in the latter stage of debates such as these often attack others for being Anti US - almost as if it is some form of crime to make any comparisons that might show the USA in an unfavourable light.

Nobody is pretending that European cities are an oasis of peace, tranquility and law abiding folk. It is just a matter of putting peoples fears into some sort of perspective.

Although I agree with nearly everything Flanner has written in response to the OP. I dislike the insinuation that people against hunting are lunatics.

walkinaround

>>>>>
Instead, the poster made the practically incredible assertion that someone living in the English countryside believes protest demonstrations by Muslims make London unsafe to go to.
>>>>>

flanner...i did not misinterpret the OP's post....i made a broader interpretation of it. she did not specifically state that the concern was around the demos themselves becoming violent. she said that it is unsafe to go to london and pointed to the demos as evidence of that. re-read the post.

the implication quite possibly is that there is unrest and that unrest can lead to greater problems.

i'm not going to debate any of this as nobody knows where the unrest (if there is any....you make your own judgement) will lead. such debates are uninteresting, speculative, agenda-rich, and threads on the subject are non-productive (as was my original point).

to take your (quite reasonable) interpretation of the question, i agree that demos of this nature themselves are generally nothing to worry about in london. i have been around the cartoon demo and the lebanon demo as well as others...they have all been peaceful (or easily avoided if someone feels uncomfortable). because of the history of demos such as these, i would anticipate that there is a low chance of violent protests by this community. other issues/groups are more likely to spark violence in the london street protests (but still nothing to worry about). but this is just an educated guess, of course.

alanRow

<<< I dislike the insinuation that people against hunting are lunatics. >>>

Given that the pro-hunting lobby said the banning of hunting would lead to mass slaughter of hounds, massive unemployment and general Destruction Of Life As We Know It (none of which has happened) I think we can work out who are the ones who are deluded.

bellastarr

I agree with flanneruk, but I don't live in the UK.
However, I have several close friends who live in various parts of London and I talk to at least one of them weekly.
And his family lives in Birmingham, where ther have been some problems. All of these folks are conducting their daily lives as usual.
Go, and enjoy London with your friends. It's a wonderful city. Try to visit the Tate while you're there, they might enjoy it! Just don't expect a perfect breakfast. We do breakfast much better than the Brits IMO (Sorry Brits!) Otherwise, have a good trip!

Kate

Hey, English breakfasts Rule!!

Anyways, this thread has reminded me of the deomnstration I came across in Central London this weekend. I was stuck in a traffic jam, watching the culprits file past me and down Park Lane - HUGE demo, an anti-war, 'don't bomb Iran' peace rally, a mix of muslims and elderly anglos-saxons, when I saw one of the demonstrators carrying what looked like a large tree in one hand with a packard in the other proclaiming 'Peaceful English Bush'. Made my day.

Sue_xx_yy

These threads go nowhere because people attempt to use statistics and logic to address something - fear - which is not founded in logic in the first place. That doesn't mean that fear, in and of itself - is automatically wrong. Sometimes one's instincts can be correct. This is why one cannot simply dismiss fear out of hand - sometimes, it is a useful tool.

It isn't useful here because the person afraid is not, apparently, the OP but her sister-who-has-a-friend, not to mention her travelling companions who are now 'somewhat scared' to go.

luvlondon, I suggest you present your friends with a hypothetical situation: you encounter a demonstration, now what. What's your next move? And so on. Accepting the possibility (howsoever remote, or likely) and moving on to how you'll plan to deal with it is going to be a lot easier than trying to reassure them. Anxiety just doesn't work that way.

For what it's worth, we did run into a demonstration within half an hour after arriving in Nice, France. Something about Palestine. We smiled pleasantly (making it clear we wanted no confrontation) walked right past the demonstrators, and headed to our hotel.

Not much of a dramatic story is it?

Enjoy London.

PatrickLondon

I live in a part of London where at least 30% of the population is (nominally at least) Muslim. I've lived in London pretty well all my life. I have never felt unsafe in general, nor in particular in connection with Muslims. Last Saturday there was a large protest about Iraq in Trafalgar Square. How large is as ever a matter of dispute between the organisers and the police, but one thing seems to indisputable: there wasn't even scuffling or jostling, and nothing affected any of the things tourists would want to do, even just around the corner.

I wouldn't wish to come between you and your sister, or between her and her friend, but I strongly suspect her friend hasn't been to London much, and rather needs to get out more. I don't know what newspaper she's been reading (I could hazard a guess), but she's overlooked the fact that London is a bit larger than a country village. When we really had riots, Paris-style, you wouldn't have known about it anywhere that tourists went.

Of course, if anyone's trying to feed you the line that "Londonistan" should be boycotted because of some people's political opinions here, well, you make your own judgement. But there is no particular safety issue that you need worry about: seven million of us manage to go about our daily business without major upset.

Perhaps - once you've settled into your hotel - you could invite your sister's friend to come and see for herself, even down Brick Lane on a Sunday!

Quiz

We went to paris oct 2005 during street protests. our families beggeed us not to go because of the problems. we went and saw no protests and had one of the best trips yet. But as soon as we landed on U.S. soil warinings were on cnn not to travel to Paris. Lifes short go and enjoy.

lawchick

The Paris thing was quite funny. I was in my apartment in paris watching CNN newsflshes entitled "Paris Burning" with a bigh flame coming up out of the middle of the map of France.

doonhamer

Shock horror! For the first time ever, I find myself in agreement with EVERY WORD written by Flanneruk.
I live in LOndon, and believe it or not as you please, there have been no, repeat no, demonstrations (violent or otherwise)by anyone in the past few months. Where is this woman getting her information?

Kate

Well, there have been demonstrations (as I said, I saw one on Saturday). London ALWAYS has someone, from somewhere, with a beef about something, marching to London on a sunny Saturday afternoon and waving a banner around. London has ALWAYS been the national focus for demos of any sort - we're a small enough country that if someone in Newcastle has a beef with the government about the price of smoked salmon, then it's no big potatoes to hire a coach and come and wave a plackard in front of Big Ben.

But the point is, these demonstrations are just a healthy sign of a democracy. They aren't violent. They aren't riots. They don't affect tourists (unless you feel like picking up a plackard and marching along with them).

wanderinggirl

It's amusing to me that so many people in Europe or the UK have this perception that America is unsafe.
I travel all the time, usually alone, and enjoy walks in NYC, DC, Philadelphia, San Francisco and so on, ALONE. I am in my 40's, and I've never been confronted much less mugged in any of these cities nor others.
However, in Spain, Italy, France, Prague, I have had people try to pickpocket me or a member of my family. I pulled a young man's hand out of my closely held purse on the bus in Florence. My daughter was surrounded by gypsies in Spain.
In all the above places, I am usually spoken to in the native language as I am dark haired, dress well and usually in black. People are very surprised when I respond with American English.

Furthermore, I was in Italy a couple of years ago when a lovely young man from the US midwest was killed by a parent of a girl who believed she was in danger. The young man was only seeing the girl home safely and the father, out of fear, killed the 18 year old boy. It's a desperately sad situation. The young man was in Florence attending college. He came from a wonderful family and was a fine person.

In our travels, we've been at many cities where there have been demonstrations, some having over a million people arrive for such.

While I am not fearful, I am cautious. The "Mob mentality" can overtake some particularly emotional, violent prone, demonstrators, too.

Just as Europeans laugh at our fears, we can laugh at theirs. In reality, there are things to fear about the unknown. Fortunately, we try to overcome them and continue to travel.

missypie

Our kids' spring break usually concides with the anniversary of the US invasion of Iraq. We were in Paris on the first anniversary of the invasion and witnessed QUITE an anti-war march. They were passing out flyers that I couldn't read, but I could read "Bush Assassin" or something similar.

If you happen to travel out of the US around March 19th every year, I guess you could get the idea that demonstrations are frequent.