Raw shrimp in Bologna? Really?
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:51 AM
#21
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As I mentioned in my post above, I saw raw shrimp quite a few times on menus along the coast. And I've also seen it on menus in Puglian seaside restaurants. LIke this one:
http://www.pescheria2mari.it/
http://www.pescheria2mari.it/
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:19 AM
#23
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capxxx
Every year in Gallipoli there is festival that celebrates raw and fried fish, and one of the specialites of the feast is raw red shrimp. Puglia is part of Italy, and crudo di pesce, including raw shrimp where safe, is traditionally Italian
Also, *you* were the one who said you were offered "ceviche" in Bologna. I told you that you weren't. But I showed you recipes for different kinds of raw shrimp preparations in Italy. Italians don't think of them as recipes for "ceviche." They think of them as recipes for crudo di pesce -- because? That's what they are.
I am aware of the differences between "ceviches" and other vinegared fish preparations, but they actually all come from the same root word for vinegar in Arabic (or it may be Farsi). The term is something like "sikbaj" (I don't have an Arabic keyboard) which I think translates as "vinegar bath". I think the herring "kipper" may be that too, and "aspic." (A dish which evolved further.) But the arab terms refers to a preservative for both fish and for meat.
In Liguria, cooked anchoves are sometimes later preserved in vinegar so you can leave them unrefrigerated. Likewise octopus.
Original Spanish dictionary definitions of escabeche omitted any mentioning of cooking, and focused on the vinegar. Earlier terms for "ceveche" in the New World were "sebeche",,,,
Yada, yada.
Like I said, it is not clear to me whether using vinegar and acids was brought to the New World or whether the Europeans discovered a similar dish. But the word "ceviche" I am pretty sure is a European word, not a word imported into European languages.
I can only add to people that Italy is a large place and Europe is an even larger one. I frequently encounter on Fodor's the remark "I never saw that in my travels in Europe" as an assertion something either doesn't exist or must be some very odd exception to the norm. But even if one has made repeat trips to Europe, one has only seen an extremely small sliver of Europe. I live in Italy and everytime I go out of my neighborhood I encounter new foods that are thousands of years old.
Every year in Gallipoli there is festival that celebrates raw and fried fish, and one of the specialites of the feast is raw red shrimp. Puglia is part of Italy, and crudo di pesce, including raw shrimp where safe, is traditionally Italian
Also, *you* were the one who said you were offered "ceviche" in Bologna. I told you that you weren't. But I showed you recipes for different kinds of raw shrimp preparations in Italy. Italians don't think of them as recipes for "ceviche." They think of them as recipes for crudo di pesce -- because? That's what they are.
I am aware of the differences between "ceviches" and other vinegared fish preparations, but they actually all come from the same root word for vinegar in Arabic (or it may be Farsi). The term is something like "sikbaj" (I don't have an Arabic keyboard) which I think translates as "vinegar bath". I think the herring "kipper" may be that too, and "aspic." (A dish which evolved further.) But the arab terms refers to a preservative for both fish and for meat.
In Liguria, cooked anchoves are sometimes later preserved in vinegar so you can leave them unrefrigerated. Likewise octopus.
Original Spanish dictionary definitions of escabeche omitted any mentioning of cooking, and focused on the vinegar. Earlier terms for "ceveche" in the New World were "sebeche",,,,
Yada, yada.
Like I said, it is not clear to me whether using vinegar and acids was brought to the New World or whether the Europeans discovered a similar dish. But the word "ceviche" I am pretty sure is a European word, not a word imported into European languages.
I can only add to people that Italy is a large place and Europe is an even larger one. I frequently encounter on Fodor's the remark "I never saw that in my travels in Europe" as an assertion something either doesn't exist or must be some very odd exception to the norm. But even if one has made repeat trips to Europe, one has only seen an extremely small sliver of Europe. I live in Italy and everytime I go out of my neighborhood I encounter new foods that are thousands of years old.
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:28 AM
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capxxx,
Ekscrunchy and I were posting at the same time.
Just to echo what eks is trying to tell you and to repeat what I said earlier:
Regional coastal dishes are now commonly found on many restaurant menus throughout Italy and their are many restaurants in Italy outside of Puglia that have Pugliese chefs. (Scacco Matto in Bologna is one.) The regional origins of these dishes don't make them any less Italian or any less popular on Roman or Milanese or Bolognese menus.
One of the recipes I gave you above is from a restaurant in the Amalfi. Another poster talked about a diner some years ago getting bad crudo in Rome. Crudo is very popular not only around Genova, but also around Trieste and even inland in the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia region. There are restaurants serving crudo di pesce in Milan. (I'm just listing what I can think of, and thank you eks for reminding me of Venice).
Ekscrunchy and I were posting at the same time.
Just to echo what eks is trying to tell you and to repeat what I said earlier:
Regional coastal dishes are now commonly found on many restaurant menus throughout Italy and their are many restaurants in Italy outside of Puglia that have Pugliese chefs. (Scacco Matto in Bologna is one.) The regional origins of these dishes don't make them any less Italian or any less popular on Roman or Milanese or Bolognese menus.
One of the recipes I gave you above is from a restaurant in the Amalfi. Another poster talked about a diner some years ago getting bad crudo in Rome. Crudo is very popular not only around Genova, but also around Trieste and even inland in the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia region. There are restaurants serving crudo di pesce in Milan. (I'm just listing what I can think of, and thank you eks for reminding me of Venice).
Apr 13th, 2012, 06:22 AM
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It only occurs to me now that I should add to this thread for anybody who digs it up that unless you are sure of the source of raw fish or raw seafood in Italy, you shouldn't eat it. And if you do seek it out from a quality restaurant, expect to pay what some will think are "outrageous prices" for safe, quality raw seafoods. (High prices are the norm for quality, unfrozen seafoods anywhere in Italy, even cooked. This is not a cheap item to bring to the table if you care about freshness.)
capxxx, here's a 2004 Travel + Leisure article recommending a raw shrimp dish in Venice
http://www.travelandleisure.com/arti...lute-to-venice
(again, without an updated recommendation from a knowledgeable source, don't eat raw seafoods in Venice)
capxxx, here's a 2004 Travel + Leisure article recommending a raw shrimp dish in Venice
http://www.travelandleisure.com/arti...lute-to-venice
(again, without an updated recommendation from a knowledgeable source, don't eat raw seafoods in Venice)
Apr 13th, 2012, 09:34 AM
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In our experience it's fairly rare to see completely raw fish and shellfish on offer in most parts of Italy, whereas - for instance - in the resorts along France's Atlantic coast it's a popular delicacy, readily available and didn't use to be so very expensive....
But perhaps that reflects differences between the Mediterranean and the open ocean?
One place where we did find a wide choice, of varieties and restaurants serving them, was indeed down in Puglia, at Trani - where the boats sell their catch at the harbourside each evening, all but within reach of diners' tables...
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705621
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705624
Worth noting though that even there the shellfish are first taken to rest, and purge, in special cleaning tanks, before they're brought back to be consumed.... as some of the town's restaurants make good care to mention!
But it does appear that some of the locals still have a few reservations - with this session ("Raw Fish - Can You Trust It?") having been held in their hospital's conference room only a few months ago!
http://www.bipress.tv/trani/attualit...o-della-asl-bt
Peter
But perhaps that reflects differences between the Mediterranean and the open ocean?
One place where we did find a wide choice, of varieties and restaurants serving them, was indeed down in Puglia, at Trani - where the boats sell their catch at the harbourside each evening, all but within reach of diners' tables...
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705621
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705624
Worth noting though that even there the shellfish are first taken to rest, and purge, in special cleaning tanks, before they're brought back to be consumed.... as some of the town's restaurants make good care to mention!
But it does appear that some of the locals still have a few reservations - with this session ("Raw Fish - Can You Trust It?") having been held in their hospital's conference room only a few months ago!
http://www.bipress.tv/trani/attualit...o-della-asl-bt
Peter
Apr 13th, 2012, 10:31 AM
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I think we saw raw fish on more menus than not during the 17 days spent driving up the coast from Calabria to Campania.
For example, here is the menu from a well regarded and fairly traditional SlowFood restaurant in Pisciotta:
http://www.ristoranteangiolina.it/wp...principale.pdf
And look at the first photo on the website of another rstaurant we liked, in Castellabate:
http://www.ristoranteiduefratelli.net/
For example, here is the menu from a well regarded and fairly traditional SlowFood restaurant in Pisciotta:
http://www.ristoranteangiolina.it/wp...principale.pdf
And look at the first photo on the website of another rstaurant we liked, in Castellabate:
http://www.ristoranteiduefratelli.net/
Apr 14th, 2012, 03:39 AM
#30
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Both of the places were excellent and I would certainly recommend. We had 2 dinners at Due Fratelli and only one an Angiolina and I would happily return to either. As for the crudi, I ordered it only ay Acquapazza in Cetara on this trip. Another well-regarded eatery in Cetara, San Pietro, also features it on their menu, if I am remembering correctly from an earlier visit to the town.
