We are off to Italy and France in September. We plan to travel by train between cities and then pick up hire cars.
Rome to positano
Positano to sienna
Florence to paris (night train)
Paris to beaune
Beaune to saint emillion

Are we best to purchase a pass or buy point to point. Any suggestions would be appreciated

It's unlikely a pass will save you money, particularly in Italy where train fares are cheap and passes require a (paid) reservation.

Here's a quick guide:

http://seat61.com/Railpass-and-Eurai...0pay-as-you-go

I'd seriously consider Easyjet or other discount airline for the Florence-Paris leg... more people seem to dislike the night train than enjoy it.

You always hear 'it saves spending the night in a hotel'.... I'll take a hotel over a noisy swaying train any night! ;^) Also, the cost of the flight can be vastly less than the train fare...

There's no train station in Positano. You would have to train to either Naples or Salerno and change to either the local train/bus. You might want to train to Salerno and pick up your car, keeping it until Siena, depending on what you are planning to tour. Did you want the car for Amalfi or Tuscany?

I know from friends that Eurail deffo doesn't help you to save money. It's better if you book it point to point. In France you can check there are some reduction cards, your get from 20% - 60% reduction... The card costs around 50€. So you can check the prices in advance to see if you can afford those 50€. That's the best way to save money, at least in France.

Cheers!!!

At least check into the France-Italy Railpass as you are traveling long distances getting to France and in France itself. Check these great sources for lots on trains in these countries and railpasses - www.seat61.com (check this site's link to Rail Europe to check on pass prices); www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

and decades of incessant rail travel in these countries makes me to highly encourage first class on trains there - in so many ways a more relaxed and luxurious trip - the pass is a much better deal in first class because the differential between class pricing with the pass is less than with regular tickets. On the trip of a lifetime IMO do no skimp - 2nd class is OK but first class is so so much nicer - especially for those carrying luggage - much more room for luggage there.


- that is the only pass IMO you should consider and it would be cost effective I believe if you wish to have flexibility and decide on which trains you want to take as you go along - online discounts often are non-changeable and non-refundable and are sold in limited numbers so must be booked far in advance in France at least to guarantee.

Ticket purchased in advance from Paris to Beaune will cost 24€.

Travel from Beaune to St Emillion will require your passing through Paris, into Gare de Lyon, departing Montparnasse. I see only one train a day which departs Beaune at 7h27 and arrives St Emillion at 16h35. Advance purchase tickets are 87.70€

http://www.voyages-sncf.com (in French only)
http://www.tgv-europe.com

Sarastro is telling you you will have to get from the Gare de Lyon station in Paris to the Montparnasse station.

Trenitalia has introduced some cheap fares too if you book ahead.

Re: railpasses. Except on slow regional trains, you will have to buy seat reservations for each trip in addition to the cost of the pass. Point-to-point tickets already include seat reservation.

I see only one train a day which departs Beaune at 7h27 and arrives St Emillion at 16h35. Advance purchase tickets are 87.70€>

If advance tickets with a discount are 88 euros or about $130 for a single ride and full fare is more then by all means investigate the France-Italy railpass as this one ride alone would pay for a good chunk of the pass perhaps. And if going first class that one trip would probably be much much more pricey.

A 5-day pass over a 2-month period costs p.p. $305 - if you spend $130 on a discounted, restricted ticket that makes $175 left for the other four days - and if it costs $38 to go to Beaune that makes $137 for your other three days of trains - and you can have full flexibility to hop any train anytime and not depend on the restricted 88 euro fare that must be booked in advance and not changed, etc.


other three days $45 each day - that is about 29 euros a day for each of your three Italian trips and again total flexibility. But on many Italian trains you do have a 10 euro supplement to pay so figure that in if taking the faster trains.

The florence to Paris overnight train may cost way more than 29 euros itself. Do not listen to those here who say railpasses are rarely or never a good deal - unfortunately that is the mantra of some and is total misinformation that does a disservice to folks not experienced in these matters.

You need to do the maths.

A Eurail global flexi pass works out at around 69 euros per day, one for Italy only 55 euros per day. Add the 10 euros fast train fee, that's 79 or 65 euros per day. That's all 1st class. If you're under 26 it's much cheaper for a pass and it's 2nd class, but I'll assume you're over 26.

Rome-Salerno (for the bus to Positano) is 62 euros 1st class or 48 euros 2nd class, booked at www.trenitalia.com. If you pre-book, a Mini fare might be (say) 43 euros 1st class, 38 euros 2nd class. So cheaper not to use a pass.

Salerno-Florence is 75 euros 2nd class, 106 euros 1st class, plus 5 euros for the regional train on to Siena. Here, a pass saves monty. Though again, Mini fares might reduce the fare if pre-booked.

Florence-Paris starts at 45 euros with a 'Smart Price' fare booked at www.trenitalia.com WITHOUT a pass, but prices vary. With a pass, the couchette supplement is 20 euros, so if you go couchette and get the 45 euro rate, your 69-euros-per-day pass saves you all of 25 euros. To check prices with a pass, use www.trenitalia.com, select the direct Artesia train, then in the box marked 'More fares' select 'Global pass', and also select the type of couchette or sleeper you want.

A Eurail global flexi pass works out at around 69 euros per day, one for Italy only 55 euros per day>

why are you talking about a Eurail Global Pass when OP is only going to France and Italy and thus the much cheaper France-Italy Eurail Pass is what you should be comparing it to - a 5-day pass that would cost a total of $305 p.p. in 2nd class and not that much more in first class, which IMO after traveling years on trains in those countries is what the average tourist of the trip of a lifetime should do.

But Eurail Global and you per day costs of that is irrelevant to the OP who would be foolish to even consider such a pass.

Other options:

Rome/Positano - Marozzi bus 20.50€
Positano/Rome - Marozzi bus 20.50€
Marozzi has limited departures, but you avoid having to make train changes in Naples and changing to the bus in Sorrento.
http://www.marozzivt.it/script/bigli...pobigl=marozzi

Rome/Siena - Sena bus 22€ (or purchase early for 10€)
Lots of daily departures. Travel time is the same as the train, but the bus drops you in the city center (train station is outside the center).
http://www.sena.it/

Florence/Paris - train - Smart fare 45€ (4 person couchette - same price you would have to pay even if you were using a rail pass)
or
Pisa/Paris Orly - Easy Jet - 33€ - 74€ (depending on day in Sept). The flight is only 1 hour and 40 minutes. You would have to get to the Pisa airport from Florence (6€).
http://www.easyjet.com/asp/en/book/index.asp?lang=en

As for the cheapest pass, a 5 day 2nd cl saver pass is $330. You would then have to add seat fees for Italy. Rome/Naples 10€ ($14.30), Naples/Siena ($14.30), Florence/Paris 45€ ($64.40) bringing the cost up to $423.

>>>With a pass, the couchette supplement is 20 euros,<<<
Trenitalia lists the pass couchette supplement as 45€ for a 4 person couchette and 25€ for a 6 person couchette. You pay the same buying a point-to-point ticket for the 4 person couchette with the Smart fare. You save 10€ with a pass for the 6 person (25 vs 35 Smart fare).

FYI - September Florence/Paris is not available to book yet on Trenitalia (only through mid-August currently).

it all depends perhaps on whether one wants flexibility or not or wants to try to get those limited in numbers sold really early and lock themselves into it - fine for those that do but for those wishing flexibility a pass can be priceless due to fully flexibile fares that are much higher than the discounted fares.

anyway IMO any tourist should go first class for all the reasons I listed above so bourbon's fares in that case are comparing apples to oranges IMO.

cheapest is not always the wisest way to go IMO.

I chose Global and Italy as the 'extremes', to (in naval gunnery terms!) 'bracket' the target. A France+Italy pass will cost more than the 55-euros per-day Italy-only pass, but less than the Global.

Then we have the Saver pass, but I don't know if the OP is travelling alone or as a couple. Then there's the Youth factor, but I don't know their age. And longer-period passes work out as less per day, of course.

But that is the sort of calculation that travellers should be doing.

It certainly seems as if you need to travel from Rome to Venice (or equivalent) every day you use the railpass to make a pass save money even over full-price 1st class fares, when the majority of posts I see talk about going Rome-Florence day 1, Florence-Venice day 2, Venice-Verona day 3, etc.

And if you pre-book a fixed itinerary, you can save significant amounts.

True, if the pass was only marginally more than the full-price fare and I wanted flexibiity, it may well be worth the extra, as long as you do that knowingly, not in ignorance of what the normal price was.

I'd travel first class as a treat if I wasn't hard up, as a student I wouldn't bother with the extravagance, I'd simply go 2nd class. It depends on your price/comfort trade off, just be aware that 2nd class is absolutely fine, we Europeans have got rid of all the chickens now.

Oh, and I'd add this, a bit philosophical perhaps, but it goes to the essence of what one travels FOR:

If you take the sleeper train from Florence to Paris, maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll love it, maybe you won't. Take a picnic and a bottle of wine, leave behind any pre-conceptions or expectations. You'll have an experience to remember, something to talk about, and you'll KNOW.

If you chicken out and just fly (which is of course these days a stressful 5 daytime hours of waiting in line at airports), when you already know what the inside of a plane is like and no-one is interested in you telling them about it as they all know perfectly well too, then, well, I reckon you've missed out on an experience.

And I think any new experience is better than a non-experience. Discuss, in no more than 5,000 words...