Robjame, I am a bit slow and not particularly bright or the enlightened sort, definitely not one of those "most" people :) And thanks for your carefully typed post. I liked it so you may as well feel good about it. ;) No, answering your question, I am NOT having fun at your expense :) But I like people with humor. :)

My only point is I have NEVER known any immigrant discussing American dealth penalty laws as a part of their decision making process :) I know scores of immigrants but not one ever discussed the topic!

Wait... I think smueller is about to say something about Salem Witch trials that altamiro will respond to :)

And, Altamiro, I will give you my crystal ball for free if you were near me but you are not :)

Hate groups, vigilantes, and lynchings are not government-sanctioned entitities. Acts committed under the guise of those are more akin to murder than capital punishment. It was the German government that persecuted (and executed) Jews, not some renegade element of society.

Also, the Salem Witch persecuations were pre-America, when we were still subject to European law. I believe that plenty of "witches" were murdered in Europe.

>Namely, that the US has higher expectations and is less forgiving of the less motivated.

Smueller, I think you misunderstood me. The career pathways I mentioned don't require less motivation or lower qualification here; they are simply differently organised. Motivation doesn't really enter the equation.

You need the same high motivation and hard work to reach your career goals in Germany as you need in the USA;
But if what you mean is only that those without motivation have a harder time surviving in USA than in Europe, I agree.

>Also, the Salem Witch persecuations were pre-America, when we were still subject to European law.

I was always so naive and thought that Salem witch burnings took place in Massachusetts which was de facto self-governing, and whose legislation served as a major input for the current US constitution?
In any case: it sounds like the "american laws" came down from God or out of the thin air, and have so little in common with "european laws". American laws are in their majority a combination of European legislations.

"I am a bit slow and not particularly bright or enlightened sort"
Comfy... I think you are having a little fun at my expense...LOL

smueller - would you concede that although the US MAY be more accepting of foreigners, most of Europe is more accepting of individual differences. I am not talking law here but attitude.

ComfyShoes - Divine prediction abilities?
How much for your crystal ball?
:-)

Hmm... See above.... :)

Have a nice evening, folks.

Hi Mike,

>...it´s funny to see that the vast majority consider Europe vs the US...as two countries. Europe is composed of a very wide variety of countries, while the US are a "united" nation and much more homogeneous.<

A good point, but not completely accurate.

From this side of the pond, Europe (especially the Eurozone) looks very much like your view of the US from your side of the pond.

There really isn't a "United States" in the same way that there isn't a Europe.

I live in Madison, GA. It is a completely different world from Madison, WI; Madison, CA; Madison, CT; Madison, KA and Madison, NJ.

It's true that we all speak English (mostly), and that we are more homogeneous than pre-WWII Europe was, but we were never a "melting pot".

The folks on the West side of the Sierras are very different from those on the East side of the Mississippi, and they are both very different from those in the middle.

I have chosen to note these differences by making a study of the different biscuit recipes as I have traveled the US.

I expect to have the first draft of my book completed in 2015.

((I))

>...most of Europe is more accepting of individual differences. I am not talking law here but attitude.<

Maybe, maybe not.

I can only speak from my own experiences.

I can remember when Europeans used to lecture Americans about their race problems - before they had countable minority populations.

Now that they have sizable minorities, Western Europe reminds me of 1960's America.

I don't think that small-town France, or Germany or Italy is any more tolerant of difference than small-town Maryland, West Virginia, Georgia, Arizona California or Washington.

Despite our local gun toting, bible thumping, SUV driving, Free-Enterprise Capitalism, Fair-Tax, Get-Rid-of-the-Department-of Education, Fox-News-Watching politicians (who are re-elected every time), our tricounty area is about 12% Black, 8% Hispanic, 6% Gay and 2% Jewish.

I have heard of no incidents of racial, religious or sexual-orientation problems
in the 10 years that I have been here, and our local grapevine is very active.

((I))
It does seem that there are various wife-swapping clubs, but that's a different matter.

Whew, what a long thread.

Near as I can tell from reading it, life choices get made from some intersection of: developmental stage of life; economics and career status; personality style; logistics; spousal/family issues; and political/religious/spiritual philosophy. (As, perhaps, do choices made about whether and how to respond to a thread like this ;^)

As an unmarried retiree (developmental stage-spousal factor) passionate about colorful and historical beauty (personality), who might be able to make it work financially (economics) if I could muster the energy and self-discipline (personality) to organize it (logistics), I'd *love* to move to France and travel all of Europe in a VW van taking photos for a couple of years, maybe even permanently.

While I think nationalism and retribution are primitive states of mind (philosophy/spirituality), by now in my life (developmental stage), I figure such matters only affect my life if choose to engage with their consequences (politics/personality). Doesn't mean I don't still *care* about such things, only that I choose where to put my energy.

Vive la difference!

"It may be true that more French or Swiss are moving to Australia or Canada these days. But you have to remember that their immigartion is more open, largely because they don't have the numbers of immigrants that the US does."

- Not so, at least in Australia's case. In fact our points-based immigration rules are more restrictive than those of the US, immigrants being admitted on skills/family reunion/New Zealand citizenship/humanitarian grounds. The great majority of European immigrants are British and Irish.

An estimated By one account about 150,000 Australians live in the US, overwhelmingly for career reasons and not permanently. They're outnumbered by an estimated 250,000 Australians living in the UK. Altogether about 1,000,000 Australians or 5% of the total population reside overseas, not counting tourists.

>>
A French baccalaureate offers the holder only the right to apply to a university not the right to attend - and certainly not the right to attend free of charge. <<

You got it wrong, again. It certainly does. Registration to University is a <i>right</i> in France as long as one holds a Baccalaur&eacute;at. Let me quote myself :

<b>Even a professional baccalaur&eacute;at in auto mechanics entice the bearer with the right to register for Philosophy or Medicine at his University.</b>

Register in this sentence does not mean &quot;apply&quot; (!), but means, well, &quot;register&quot; and, of course, take the relevant courses.

This can lead to problems, by the way, since hundreds of students Psychology, Sociology or Sports Studies, and there is not always sufficient infrastructure to cope with this &quot;wave&quot;.


It is a right which is kept over the years, by the way, even if holders of the <i>Baccalaur&eacute;at</i> of the current year have a priority.

&quot;Free of charge&quot; is, on the other hand, something different. The national tuition fee for undergraduate education is, as of 2007, 165&euro;. In most cases, one must add 192&euro; for health insurance. Some universities do charge &quot;hidden&quot; fees, but they are rarely huge. Sciences Po Paris is among the few public (well, semi-public) graduate schools that charge up to 5.100&euro;, in accordance with the parent's earnings.

May I suggest that Kerouac and I have some first-hand knowledge of the French education system, something which, with all due respect, you do not seem to have ?

I will gladly make a detailed post explaining all the details, including the major flaws of the French education system (and there are plenty of the latter, believe me !)

&gt;&gt; since hundreds of students Psychology, Sociology or Sports Studies, and there is not always sufficient infrastructure to cope with this &quot;wave&quot;. &lt;&lt;

<i>Pri&egrave;re d'Ins&eacute;rer</i> <b>want to study</b> between &quot;students&quot; and &quot;Psychology&quot;.

Ira

&quot;I have heard of no incidents of racial, religious or sexual-orientation problems
in the 10 years that I have been here, and our local grapevine is very active.&quot;

There are 44 identified &quot;hate Groups&quot; operating in GA...from Black speparatist, to KKK, and Chritain identity , Neo-Nazi, white supremacist, Neo-nationalist, skinheads, and the list goes on.

To follow on from the previous post, I would think that Europeans might move to Canada, Australia and New Zealand for reasons similar to those who'd move to the US.

For many, especially the British and Irish, these three British Commonwealth countries would offer the lure of greater cultural compatibility compared with the US. Universal health insurance schemes, lower crime rates (and, if it matters, no death penalty) and an arguably less competitive mindset might all factor into the mix.

Others might consider the US a more dynamic and exciting place to live.

Personally, I could happily live in the US, especially the &quot;Left Coast&quot;, for a couple of years. Culturally, California and Australia aren't all that far apart. In fact I've met many British immigrants who've been taken aback to discover how &quot;American&quot; Australian is. They seem to have been expecting a sort of Britain with better weather.

And let me add my voice to whoever opposed sending this thread to the Fodorite Lounge: that would be a good way to kill it off under an avalanche of vituperation and trivia.

There are some entertaining and intelligent posters on the lounge, but they're outnumbered by people with no particular interest in travel, and an obsession with domestic trivia and the doings of empty-headed celebrities. Serious discussion is dominated by US domestic politics, usually ending up in unproductive name-calling. More often than not, attempts to dilute the Lounge's US-centric concerns are just ignored.

Neil, I've had several friends here in the US (NYC) from Australia - to a person they were able to manage convenient marriages to US Citizens to stay in the country. (They are: an actor, an actress, a dancer. One moved back to OZ 15 years ago or more, another - with her Dutch husband who also had previously married an American! - last year. The third is still here and happily not-quite-married to his &quot;husband&quot; of 10+ years.) What I know about the commonwealth inter-mobility is that any of them could work in Canada, Britain, Scotland, as well as their home in Oz - Actors Equity in all those countries is totally reciprocal. They wanted to work here, so ...

I personally would gladly move to Europe. I realize this isn't the original question, but I think it's still relevant. There are people on both sides of the ocean who will be curious and willing to take a risk by moving to a culture relatively unfamiliar to them. Americans can do it within their own country - being an Army brat I can personally attest to the stark contrast between Chicago, IL and rural Texas. I can also attest to the culture shock of moving from these places to Europe. And to the differences between various regions of a single country in Europe (I'm thinking of Germany, for example). So I would say that Europeans can do it within their own countries, as well, and certainly on their own continent.

The number of overgeneralizations in this thread is alarming to me. However, I think overgeneralization was inevitable because the question is overgeneralized. To know why a European would want to live in America instead of Europe, wouldn't you have to ask him or her? The reasons for moving from Europe to the US have to vary as much as the individuals who choose to do so.

heterodyne - My lack of &quot;first-hand knowledge of the French education system&quot; does not prevent me from obtaining simple facts. Moreover, first-hand knowledge is no guarantee that one is thoroughly familiar with a particular subject. I may have experienced a tornado first-hand, and yet that doesn't make me an expert in the formation of tornados.

It would be useful if you would clarify your phrase &quot;entice the bearer.&quot; I have no idea what that phrase means in the context offered.

Also, perhaps you could propose some theories why only 23% of French have taken advantage of higher education when it is nearly free. You are familiar with my theory - it is a consequence of that fact that university admissions are rationed.

Finally, the following is from the Wikipedia entry on French Education - &quot;For entrance to regular universities within France, however, there are some restrictions as to the type of baccalaur&eacute;at that can be presented.&quot; This seems to imply that all baccalaureates are not made equal.

Snook--that unfortunately is the donwside of freedom! The alternative is censorship.