MyriamC is always right although in this instance I think she owes an apology to all the cattle at the South Dakotan cattle farms. They have feelings too, you know. :)

Okay, I apologize to the South Dakota cattle. :">

>So I plug along here, overworked, underpaid, beholden to both a mortgage and considerable student loan debt. But at least I don't need to own a coat. <

Move to Georgia, Leely.

Robjame remarks:
>...and may admit applicants with special talents in sports....or to make up government required quotas...regardless of qualifying academic qualifications...<

Of course, everyone admitted to Oxbridge and Camford are there solely on their academic merits. :)

You guys in Europe might find it useful to consider affirmative action policies

>Seems to me that there were more freedoms there than here in the States.<

Mind enumerating them, Z?

>Ira, you disappoint me about the death penalty. Have you ever had the slightest indication that fear of punishment has ever stopped a 'death penalty' crime? Killing 1 or 3 or 10 people makes no difference to such people. It is not at all dissuasive.<

And you, K, disappoint me. :)

I know of no statistical evidence either way. How does one compile statistics on crimes that were not committed?

Would you argue that the punishment for armed robbery should be the same, no matter how many crimes were committed?

But, we are getting off the subject.

>For instance, less freedom for women to go topless at a beach, etc...

But isn't that a superficial freedom? I mean, that would be a silly reason to stay in Europe.<

But a reasonably good one to visit.

>...and if I suddenly become destitute (which is pretty easy if you somehow lose medical coverage) then I probably would move back to the UK. Being poor in the US would be a nightmare.<

An interesting point, ll. It is terrible to be poor anywhere.

However, in the US those without medical insurance can get emergency care at most hospitals, which is why poor people use emergency rooms as their primary physicians.

A major problem is the current administration, which doesn't fund medical care (or lots of other things) to the extent it should. (This will pass on Jan 21, 2009.)

>the "brand" is continuing to take a real hammering ove the past 100 years or so)...

Did you mean 100 or 10, Bilb?

((I))

The OP's question is subjective, depends on individual perspectives and therefore there are no right or wrong answers.

Interestingly Karen Fawcett in this week's Bonjour Paris, has a piece on the frustrations of being an expat in France:

http://tinyurl.com/3xd37c

Also it was interesting to see the number of Europeans above who made a distinction between moving to Canada as opposed to the US (even though 8th on one list). Guess I'll keep the maple leaf patch on the backpack.

There is always a problem being an expat, that you have devided loyalties.

In South Africa English speakers and UK immigrants in particular were sometimes called "Souties" roughly translated as "salties". This derived from the idea that they had one foot in UK, one in SA and that certain parts of the anatomy rested in the sea (Males only).


I wonder how much of the OP's original question reflects the common view that the whole world want's to live in the USA, and anybody who says otherwise is in denial.

"I wonder how much of the OP's original question reflects the common view that the whole world want's to live in the USA, and anybody who says otherwise is in denial."

I doubt very much. I don't think it's that common to expect a lot of Europeans to want to move to the US. We're more used to 3rd world people trying to get in.

An interesting quesion indeed. I am one of those Europeans who has moved to the States permanently and, although I still am European at heart, I have no real desire to move back.

Why? It's certainly not because I thought I'd get rich. I spent most of my pre-school and high school years in Sweden and Finland but came to the US to attend college here. The first big difference I noted was how much easier it was making friends and how accepting Americans can be of people who are different than themselves. In college people were fascinated by the fact that I spoke Swedish, and they never teased me for my sometimes idiosyncratic hobbies. Before long I had more friends than ever before and spent four happy years learning, exploring and socializing.

Perhaps I have been lucky. I am sure there are parts of the United States not as accepting of foreigners. But on the whole, I find Americans to be less reserved than Scandinavians, and more optimistic in general than Europeans. Of course, that optimism can sometimes spill into naivete which can be a problem. American car obsession is another phenomenon that sometimes gets on my nerves.

Of course, there are many things I miss about Europe: a deeper appreciation for and understanding of history, the wonderful food and people, to name just a few. I think the weight of history has made Europeans in some ways a bit wiser than Americans, but also at times a bit too cynical for their own good. Another thing that secular Europe has lost is a good deal of its spirituality. Churches there seem to be little more than museums now. (Yes, I know that is probably an exaggeration, too.)

If I ever did decide to move back to Europe, it would probably be to the UK and not Scandinavia. Why? Because I'm tea-drinking anglophile and the Brits seem to like me. But perhaps that is merely because they sense that I appreciate their culture and fascinating history.

Philosophically speaking, I sometimes I feel that I belong nowhere, like some strange hybrid plant with its roots shallowly planted everywhere. My soul is still very European but I've also come to embrace parts of American culture, spirituality and ways of living. Almost all of my friends are Americans and this is where I have the job and the home that I love. I like thinking of it as being a Citizen of the World. Perhaps I don't always have the sense of belonging that many do, but my life is never dull!

Wren, you wrote:

"That said, just Thursday night, my 30ish French friend, who has lived in the US since 2003, (came over with her savings and nothing else just to give it a go) and who just returned from a month in France, seemed even more convinced than ever that she would never return permanently to France, even saying that she would consider becoming an American citizen. She said she will always be French, but being an American is certainly possible. She also has not had an easy time here--I won't go into her story unless others want to know."

As someone who would really love to go the other direction (move from US to France for a time, if I could only figure out how to go about it), I would be interested in knowing your friend's reactions to the move and reason why she wouldn't want to return.

This has been an interesting thread, it's always fascinating to see a place that we've grown accustomed to from the eyes of another.

What a lovely post Rebecka!

Somewhat tangential to the subject of this thread is the death penalty, which was the subject of an article in my local newspaper today.

In my state (Washington State in the beautiful Pacific Northwest), 79 people have been sentenced to death in the past 25 years. Of that 79, four have actually been executed, three of these people having waived their appeals and, in essence, volunteered to die.

It is the system of appeals which keeps most offenders from being executed. They are far more likely to die of natural causes than of execution.

The state seems to use the threat of execution to compel offenders to reveal the whereabouts of their victims. This was the case this past week with a man who had abducted, raped and strangled a 12 year old girl. Detective had hoped she might be alive somewhere, bound, gagged and dying of thirst, since he is accused of raping a young girl and leaving her bound in a remote part of Fort Lewis.

In the case of a serial killer in my home town, the threat of execution led him to confess to two murders 25 years ago of which he had not been suspected, and also to reveal the whereabouts of one of his victims--buried in his own yard.

In general I oppose the death penalty, but I have to say that when someone is convicted of having raped, tortured and murdered, and is sentenced to death, I shed no tears.

The religious nature of Americans has been alluded to several times in this thread in a negative manner.

Please answer this - when have Americans slaughtered one another over religious differences? Why is it that American "religious Neanderthals," as some Europeans apparently regard them, have demonstrated more restraint than "wise and cultured" Europeans who have repeatedly gone beserk over religion? By the way, I am not overtly religious, so I have no theological axe to grind.

Attitudes toward the death penalty can be considered in a similar comparative historic context. In the US it has never been a capital offence to be a Jew or a homosexual, or to express disapproval of a ruler. In the US, theft and burgarly have never been capital offenses. At one time in England, more than 200 offenses were punishable by death, many of them trivial.

Only when the Americas were ruled by European laws were any of these offenses punishable by death.

Different histories, different perspectives.

I will fully support such a penalty the day they find a way to dig up and say sorry to a person they have executed, and then found to have been wrong.

Alternatively tell the jury that they themselves will be executed if they have later been found to have passed a death sentance wrongly - that should sharpen the mind about "reasonable doubt".

Hi W,

Do you recommend the death penalty for everyone who makes a mistake ending in a wrongful death?

((I))

--Alternatively tell the jury that they themselves will be executed if they have later been found to have passed a death sentance wrongly - that should sharpen the mind about "reasonable doubt"--

That is an excellent idea.

The reasons why most British folk want to emigrate - generally to Oz or NZ rather than US - are

a) weather
b) better standard of living

As UK folk (except NI) aren't entitled to the Diversity Lottery emigrating to the US isn't an option.

Speaking of the Diversity Lottery, can anyone tell me why the Irish are eligible whilst British folk aren't?

Ira - no.

Obviously I am being somewhat facetious. There are some crimes for which I think the death penalty should be imposed, but I have a real problem with any current system of justice, particularly where it seems to be a case of who can afford the most clever legal team.

I would lean towards cases where there is "no doubt whatsoever" but I don't know how you would prove such a thing. DNA evidence can be contaminated or messed up in a lab, Policemen and photographs have been known to lie.

In the absence of absolute proof, the only reason I can see for having a death penalty is to stop the "Mob" carrying out the sentance themselves.

Funny that audere twice mentions beer and never mentions food.

I'd guess he's from the UK, huh?

>> Kerouac - Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be). There are different types of French baccalaureates (the French equivalent of a US high school diploma). <

That is right. There are General Baccalaureates (Literature, Science or Economics), Technical Baccalaureates and Professional Baccalaureates. The latter are obtained after, as their name indicates, work-oriented education.

>>Some offer more privileges than others. For example, one might qualify someone for auto mechanic training or catering school, but not for anything remotely resembling what Americans would consider a college or university.<<

That's plain wrong. Baccalauréat is officially a university diploma, even if taken after high school. Even a professional baccalauréat in auto mechanics entice the bearer with the right to register for Philosophy or Medicine at his University.

This is not to say that the bearer will suceed, but he has the <i>right</i>.

Similarly, jobs in the French civil service/military that require a Baccalaur&eacute;at are open to any Baccalaur&eacute;at bearer - be it General, Literature-Arts or Professional, Cauldronry.

I think the other poster may have been confusing the BAC with the CAP (certificat d'aptitude professionnelle). I would not want, however, people to think that 85% of French high school students are qualified for free university education. Just as in most other countries, you can drop out of school at age 16 -- or just get a CAP and go to work.