Question for Europeans
 

Why would a European want to live in America instead of Europe?

Cheap real estate.

Economic and personal opportunity, freedom (yes, really!), a different (not absent) class structure, an escape from historical memories - but it's going to vary a lot by the person. But these are all reasons I have heard for emigration to the US (and Canada).

Not for me, happy to visit but not for a long term.

Most people I know who are interested in moving to the US think that it is easy to get rich. But as information about reality has improved over the years, fewer people are interested. The lack of freedom in the US has become a big issue -- dress codes on the beach, giant lists of rules for public parks, the censorship of American television, behavior of the police: these are just a few of the issues that rapidly deflate the enthusiasm of visitors.

Purely materialistic reasons....will always be English!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm an American who now lives in Europe and hope I never have to live in the US again. The belief "we have more freedoms than any other country in the world" you immediately realize once you live outside the country is nonsensical pablum fed to us in school and repeated over and over until we are brainwashed. I have never felt so free as I do in Europe. When I go visit family in the US I realize how nearly everything is controlled, banned, forbidden, illegal, etc., etc.

My salary is twice what I was paid when I left my last job in Boston, a big city with what is considered high salaries, I have four times as much vacation, I feel appreciated at work, the food is so, so, much better - fresh veg and fruit at the markets instead of sanitized plastic wrapped unripe junk at supermarkets.

No, linda8, I'm staying right here.

beaupeep, would be interested to know where it is you live in Europe.

Over 20 years ago we considered a move - to Pasadena CA. My OH was offered a job at NASA. We thought long and hard about it. The job was fantastic, and the OH would have loved it. We knew people there already and knew the general area. But we decided against it. The reasons? Three sons to get through school and university, health care, distance to family, two weeks holiday a year, the difficulty I would have in getting a job, the general pressure of life in the US. We opted for the Netherlands instead. High taxes, high house prices, new language, tough to build a social life here. But my kids coud go off on all day bike rides without me worrying, go sailing without needing to join a fancy club, go horse riding for a few guilders a week, they could got to uni without it breaking me. There is no zero tolerance just tolerance, no pressure to belong to a church, to believe in anything. Here we have the real freedom to develop as we want to be, something which I see less and less in the US.
So i shall continue to visit the US, and love it and it's citizens, but I would never again consider emigrating there.

I know lots of Swiss who have moved from Switzerland to Canada but none to the States.

Beaupeep, who lives in Switzerland, hits the nail on the head. However, many Swiss enjoy open spaces and the possibility to open their own business, which is much harder to do in Switzerland. So they head to Canada, New Zealand or South America. Very few move to South Africa or the States anymore.

The excellent bread.

It wouldn't suit me - crap beer, crap sports, no pubs.

Most people I know who express an desire to move to the USA do so on the basis that they think it's easy to get rich there. Methinks it is easier to do well over here than there.

But they do have bigger houses, and shinier teeth than us. That could be an incentive to some.

I can think of one reason: If I were a scientist I would propably find better financing for my research in the US.

But that is just about the only reason I can think about. I have lived in California, and the climate was way more comfy than in Finland or even southern France where I also have lived, but that is not enough to outweight Europe.

>>>freedom (yes, really!), <<<

WillTravel, would you care to tell in what way I would be more free in the US? Because everything seemed less free, kids could not even walk or bike to school by themselves.

Only when it´s Bush free.

The two countries that currently appeal the most to the French as relocation possibilities are Canada and Australia.

I definitely agree with beaupeep about being brainwashed. I did all but one year of my schooling in the US, and the whole freedom idea was drummed into us constantly. I would imagine that the main results are the decisions by policymakers of the obligation to "free" other countries like Chile, Iraq, Venezuela... What gets me is not wanting to "free" Saudi Arabia and certain other dictatorships. Is freedom less important than, hmmm, oil?

I have no interest in living in America. I'm perfectly happy in Europe.

beaupeep -

Of course you can get fresh fruits and vegetables in the U.S. Are you kidding? We get them all the time from the two markets on the next block from us. (Excellent quality).

elina: Yes, kids can walk or bike to school. It depends on where you live - is it a city or suburb (too far to walk), or a rural area?

It depends on the neighborhood, too, of course, if it's safe. But don't believe all the negative stories one hears in the press about this.

As far as general freedoms are involved:
Just came back form Budapest. We had a private guide for an afternoon who has visited the U.S. He told us that he was amazed that he got a ticket for driving 75 miles per hour in a 55 mph zone. "It's not as if I were doing 90mph. I felt more free under Communism!!" So, I guess he thinks that going 20 miles over the speed limit is no big deal and to be stopped from doing that is cutting back on his freedom. We found it very interesting.

Linda,

please clarify - do you mean the European posters on this board, or just a general pro&con question?

In 2nd case: wide open spaces are definitely an appeal, but is there still a lot of that left? I mean, in places where you also have a chance to a decent job and connection to the general culture other than by internet and TV?

Since my first visit in 1974, I have spent maybe 70 weeks in America at different times and seen a fair bit of it. 25 years ago I would have jumped at the chance to live there but in more recent years I have found myself falling out of love with the country.

Crime does seem to be bad there and it is said that 2/3 of Americans have guns in their homes. The Bounty Hunters show says there are over ten million fugitives at large (people who have skipped bail) in America. The show does demonstrate how people in America are guilty till proved innocent.

My uncle in Buffalo worked for Westinghouse for years and years and one year they decided they didn't want him and he was out the door. At one time he and his wife had to take care of her father who had fallen into a coma. Her father stayed that way at their home as they could not afford hospitalisation, till he died more than a year later.

Like many I don't like Bush's foreign policy which consists of crushing all opposing countries. America is first in military might and has more might than numbers 2-10 combined (including China and Russia) and is still building up more using National Debt to do it and to keep a high standard of living (Every man, woman and child in America owes about $900,000). Not a place to be if the bubble ever bursts.

I'm just back from two weeks holiday in the US, and although I enjoyed my trip, nothing I saw made me want to live there.

The climate- in some parts- might be a plus. And I thought it was pretty clean and tidy. And the people were VERY polite.

This is going to get people mad, so please read carefully. First, personal opinion will differ for each person. What I want is different and just as good as what the next guy does.
Second, I love visiting Europe, so this isn't a xenophobic rant. With that said:

The immigration is overwhelmingly one-way. For every one person who moves to Europe, there are 100 who move to the US. I have friends from Switzerland, France, Sweden, and every other country in Europe. I know a score of people from Europe (mostly western Europe) who are waiting for visas. And that is just my personal experience. Everyone I know also knows scores of Europeans living in LA, NY, SF, and every other city in the US.

If I go to a party of any size, there is bound to be at least one person from Europe. I go to my dance studio. French, German, Spanish. I go to dozens of places and see the same thing.

The lines outside the counselates in Europe are long. The quotas are full.

None of the people I know expect to become "rich." (I live on a good government scale salary, and many of the Europeans I know are in that range and are happy to be so.)None expect "easy money."

For Kerouac to think that the despotic state of US culture deters people from moving here ignores the vast numbers who are naturalized every time a ceremony is held.

It may be true that more French or Swiss are moving to Australia or Canada these days. But you have to remember that their immigartion is more open, largely because they don't have the numbers of immigrants that the US does.

I am not denying the personal experience of anyone who has made any comments on this thread, which is why I have not questioned experiences I disagree or even don't understand. (E.g., everything in the US is "Controlled, banned, or forbidden) Each one represents one person's experience.

However, Tony Blair once said that an easy way to take measure of a country is to see how many people want in and how many people want out. The numbers speak for themselves.

Interesting question.

I have worked at research institutes and universities for nearly my entire career, including several universities (US and foreign), the US Geological Survey, and I am currently at the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

A pattern that I have repeatedly witnessed is top foreign researchers and graduate students obsessed with coming to the US. A minority wanted to do one or two postdocs and then return home, but the majority were interested in spending their entire career in the US.

When I was a visiting scholar at the University of Tokyo, a common subject that graduate students approached me about was advice for getting a position with a US university or research institute.

The motivating factor seemed to be a sense that they could not get enough visibility and prestige at institutions in their home countries. They wanted to be recognized as authorities in their fields of research and that (in their minds) meant coming to America.

By the way, my education (up to and including a Ph.D.) did not cost me one dollar because I was competitive - universities wanted me. I worked hard and qualified for scholarships and fellowships. This was also true for most of my friends, especially once I reached graduate school.

The difference between the US and Europe is not that one charges for higher education and the other doesn't. That is an oversimplification. The reality is that US universities charge tuition to less qualified applicants and European universities simply refuse to admit such applicants because university education in places like France and Germany is rationed. A university education is free only if you are accepted. Otherwise, it is completely out of your grasp - unless, of course, you come to the US and pay your own way.

It is interesting that, although many Americans pay steep university tuitions, the US is one of the most university-educated societies in the world.

There are numerous answers to the original question. I have provided only one. It will be interesting to see other answers.

I'm a Brit who has been living in the US for 5 years. We had the choice to move here ( Massachusetts) or to Coventry, UK from Surrey. We chose the US and while we've enjoyed the experience we've always considered it a temporary move. It's provided us the opportunity to travel to places we wouldn't have gone to from Europe (like Hawaii) and we've also been able to return to Europe once or twice a year.

Having previously lived in the Caribbean I was surprised at my culture shock on moving to the US. I thought we spoke the same language! We've adjusted but it hasn't been as easy as I thought and I wouldn't recommend it to everyone.

I'm looking forward to moving somewhere else in a couple of years... preferably Australia. I can't stand the New England winters! With hindsight even Coventry seems more appealing! :)

>The difference between the US and Europe is not that one charges for higher education and the other doesn't. That is an oversimplification.

Indeed.

>The reality is that US universities charge tuition to less qualified applicants and European universities simply refuse to admit such applicants because university education in places like France and Germany is rationed.

You see - there we have the first misunderstanding. There is no such thing as "European" unversity system. There is French, German, Italian systems... and they differ from each other at least as much as they differ from US system.
It seems like your info on Europe is just as one-sided as the knowledge of many posters on USA, the other way.

I don't speak for France but in Germany, if you had finished the grammar school (about 45% of the population) you are entitled to the university access. Not to all courses - the universities DO set the minimal bar for entrance on the most popular courses. But most courses (including most natural science and engineering courses) are open.

>A university education is free only if you are accepted. Otherwise, it is completely out of your grasp

Wrong (Germany). You can either graduate from grammar school in evening courses, or improve your marks through waiting time, or enter a related but open-access course and "cross over" after a year or two. There are other possibilities too.

> - unless, of course, you come to the US and pay your own way.

Wrong. Unless you are talking about some Cowtown Community College no serious university in USA will accept you (at least not as a student from a foreign country) unless you show good marks and have jumped through a lot of other hoops.

>It is interesting that, although many Americans pay steep university tuitions, the US is one of the most university-educated societies in the world.

It is not as suprizing if you think of the fact that a) just about any small town community college counts as "university", and b) you need a university degree in USA for many qualifications which in other countries are accessible through formalized school/job dual training programs.
(examples: nurses, bank counter employees, secretaries, lab technicians)

Since the company I work in just acquired another one in USA and I work closely with them now, I can go on about lab technicians/bench chemists difference in Germany and USA, but I don't want to bore the rest of the posters.

"For every one person who moves to Europe, there are 100 who move to the US."

I cannot find the figures for Europe as a whole, but in 2006 there were 4350 US citizens given the right to live in the U.K., and 19984 British citizens given the right to live in the U.S. That is about four and a half times, not one hundred times.

I am sure that the ratios for other European countries will be different, especially for Poland and other central European countries.

It may also be the case that Europeans are happier with the idea of travelling to new countries, learning new languages, etc than Americans are. Australians and New Zealanders are notorious for their love of travel. In the U.K., we are very aware of the two words immigration and emigration, but these appear to be uncommon in American English.

>A pattern that I have repeatedly witnessed is top foreign researchers and graduate students obsessed with coming to the US. A minority wanted to do one or two postdocs and then return home, but the majority were interested in spending their entire career in the US.

Again, I can only talk about Germany and Switzerland, but it is ratio-wise exactly the other way round (at least in physics and chemistry). It seems to be a standard career step to go for 1-2 years to the USA for a postdoc. It is also considered a major career-booster if you do so. After that, a majority of the postdocs (>80%) returns to Germany/Switzerland where they either continue their academical career or go to the industry.
It may well be that in other areas, and with other countries, the ratios of visitors to "stayers" vastly differ. I can only speak from my experience.

I am fascinated by the "facts" ythat are spewed out

<<The immigration is overwhelmingly one-way. For every one person who moves to Europe, there are 100 who move to the US.>>

Back it up dncdave... or is this just what you "think"

>>>Again, I can only talk about Germany and Switzerland, but it is ratio-wise exactly the other way round (at least in physics and chemistry). It seems to be a standard career step to go for 1-2 years to the USA for a postdoc.<<<

I think it is the same in most countries. I know a gene researcher who spent 5 years in some American university doing research. I asked her and she said that her stay was longer than most people´s. According to her people usually try to return before their children start school (here at the age 7).

It would be useful if the term "grammer school" were defined.

The response suggesting that a university education is readily available in Germany seems inconsistent with the Wikipedia entry on German education, which states that university attendance in Germany lags "many" other European nations. If true, this does not support the contention that a university education is readily available in Germany. The Wikipedia article also describes some German "universities" in such a manner that they seem more like what Americans would call vocational schools - a far cry from a true university.

An American university is not the same thing as a community college. Universities, by definition, offer graduate degrees.

"Formalized training" chains an individual to a specific job (teacher, nurse, plumber, ...). A university education offers a much greater advantage when economies evolve, job markets shift, etc. Perhaps this is why there are so many unemployed Germans and French.

It is true that many foreign researchers do return to their native countries. Research positions at American instiutions are highly competitive. Not everyone can obtain a permanant position.

While there are many brilliant universities in the US, degrees from some universities do not have the same level of acceptance or recognition both in the US and internationally.

I would think that weather would be a factor. I never thought I'd consider moving to the States (I'm from Canada), but now that I'm older, I'm finding the long, cold winters more difficult to endure. If DH ever got a job offer in the States, I think we'd probably consider it. (Plus, both DHs live in Florida).

I know the question was directed twds Europeans, but I've heard that Britons like to move because of their rainy, gloomy weather.

I've also heard that Finland and other Scandinavian countries have some of the world's highest rates of suicide and depression- possibly due to SAD? Maybe northern Europeans like to move for weather reasons too. (Just surmising here.)

So even though some might not be crazy about the US' foreign policies, or culture, or whatever, its warmer, sunnier climate might be a draw.

Bloom

Interesting thread of broad generlizations :) Always enjoy the "my team is nicer" discussions.

<i> Cheap real estate </i>

Where? Manhattan or Des Moines?

<i> But my kids coud go off on all day bike rides without me worrying, go sailing without needing to join a fancy club, go horse riding for a few guilders a week </i>

Me too. In the U.S. :) Of course we pay in dollars :) Why were you so worried about letting your kids ride a bike? Mine are biking right now! Shall I call'em in?

<i> we have more freedoms than any other country in the world</i>

Okay, this is obviously the b.s. we all get fed no matter where we grow up. Unless you never went to a school which, come to think of it, may not be too bad an idea.

<i> My uncle in Buffalo worked for Westinghouse for years and years and one year they decided they didn't want him </i>

As opposed to what? The uncle in Amsterdam who continued working even though they didn't want him?:)

I guess I can go on and on. Perhaps the lesson is, and I KNOW we all understand it too, U.S. is a large country with all sorts of possibilities and options, with some limitations that varies across the board. Europe is a whole continent that also has all sorts of options and possibilities and limitations. So, if you can afford it, get to the best places and enjoy it to the fullest!

smueller makes a good point.
At one time my job required indirect management of a German subsidiary's finance director. Locally, he was referred to as Doctor ____. Yet he had no more years of education than I, with an MBA.

Hi Kaneda,

&gt;The Bounty Hunters show ....does demonstrate how people in America are guilty till proved innocent. &lt;

In your own country, what do you do about people who skip bail?

((I))

&gt;&gt;&gt;I've also heard that Finland and other Scandinavian countries have some of the world's highest rates of suicide and depression- possibly due to SAD? &lt;&lt;&lt;

No, that is old folklore. In fact Sweden and Norway have quite low suicide figures. Finland´s figures are higher, they are just about the same as Belgium´s.

Sure, warmer climates tempt pensioners, but they usually move to burden Spain´s health care system, and only spend summers in north.

In response to Robjame's &quot;fascinated by the &quot;facts&quot; ythat are spewed out...
Back it up dncdave... or is this just what you &quot;think&quot;

As I explained, my &quot;100&quot; was not intended to be literal, but a figurative illustartion of the fact that the rates of immigration are very unequal. In any event, Charley provided the numbers from one country. Although the number was 4 times as many Brit to US than US to Brit, the rate is 20 times.

If you are concerned about me being literal, I will take back what I said about knowing people who moved from every Western European country. I never met any one who wanted to move to the US from Andorra, Monaco, or Lichtenstein.

Also, for those who attribute it to the climate, I hope the people in Chicago and New York won't get mad, but their weather is lousy, and you get scores of European immigrants for those destinations.

The bottom line is people from Germany, Italy, France, and most other countries are waiting in line.

Many of the Europeans I know that live here say that they like having a house in America instead of having an apartment like in Europe. They like that you can sleep at night in quiet, without street noise. They like that you can have your own swimming pool, garden, and lawn. You get something that only the upper crust gets in Europe.

America is still a place where land is cheap and home ownership is real. As long as that is the case, people will come here.

&gt;&gt;&gt;Many of the Europeans I know that live here say that they like having a house in America instead of having an apartment like in Europe. They like that you can sleep at night in quiet, without street noise.

Hmmm, now THAT is a broad generalisation. There is &quot;Europe&quot; also outside Downtown London.

I have visited the USA several times - di even one year in university. Whil enjoying visiting (until recent years) i can't find anything why i would want to live there, getting more money ? why when you don't have time to enjoy it ? and USA don't seem to offer anything else than money.