>>when have Americans slaughtered one another over religious differences?<<

It was one factor in what happened to the Native Americans, surely? But that's hardly unique among expansions, admittedly.

Hi W,

You have raised an important differnce between the US and the laws of most European countries.

>I would lean towards cases where there is "no doubt whatsoever" but I don't know how you would prove such a thing. <

Which is why the founders used the phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt".

It should be noted that, in the US, the use of capital punishment has been modified quite a bit over the years, and it is possible that one day it will be abolished (although I expect that will be long after tobacco is banned).

When that happens, people like Dennis Rader won't be forced to choose between execution and confessing.

((I))

Fully agree with the comments regarding Europeans wanting to live in the US for a couple of years. It's definitely an adventure initially (jumping through bureaucratic hoops and loops of red tape) but all of the Europeans I have met here seem to want to either go home someday (maybe for retirement ) or are actively planning their returns.
On the other hand the South Africans I know really want to stay for good.

After longer than a few years the initial excitement wanes and I certainly feel nostalgia for the oddest things. I miss roundabouts, post boxes and umpteen other things so yes, even Coventry appeals (there are pubs there after all..)

I guess it depends where 'home' is and culturally I see my home as Europe. I know I could also live in Australia because I think it's culturally quite similar to Britain or at least much more so than USA.

Economics does come into it for many and I think it's easier for the 'average' person to have a better standard of living in the US than in Europe. If you're well off it doesn't matter so much.

I think it must be admitted that the death penalty in the US is applied in a rather inconsistent basis, state by state. The statistics reveal some rather shocking disparities.

I don't know where anyone would get the preposterous notion that the only beer available in the US is "crap" or "rubbish" - or that all UK beer isn't.

In addition to a few mainstream brands like Sam Adams and Anchor Steam, there are literally hundreds of microbrews that would give any European brew a run for its money.

As Richard English said on realbeer.com, "It just goes to show how bad the American macros are that a beer as ghastly as Watney's Red Barrel is better than they are."

It's just been announced that Chertoff is planning new security measures for tourists visiting the US. All European tourists will have to register on-line 48 hours before flying into the US. The law will be enacted as soon as Bush signs the bill. It has already been passed by Congress.

For many European tourists, this is another reason not to visit the USA.

I've searched for an English article substantiating the above information but only found many German sites. Here's one: http://tinyurl.com/2sbz38

Kerouac - Apparently we are back were we began when I suggested that access to universities is more restricted in France or Germany than the US.

A French baccalaureate offers the holder only the right to apply to a university not the right to attend - and certainly not the right to attend free of charge.

This appears consistent with my earlier statistics indicating that the US population is more educated (Tertiary education rates of 37% for the US and 23% for France).

Isn't it time to concede that it is easier to attend a college or university in the US?

Linda8:
The United States is a country of immigrants.

I guess my point is the people you are asking the question of are the ones who have chosen to stay in Europe.
The question should be to those from foreign countries who left and now live here- and ask them why?

Thanks for the compliment, robjame. :-)

I had to laugh at the comment about there being cheaper real estate in the U.S. My mother's condo in Sweden cost about a tenth of what it would here in Massachusetts. Even after real estate values rose over fifteen years or so, it still sold for maybe a third of what it would here. Granted, real estate values are on the high side in this region, but I still suspect that there are many parts of Europe with comparative bargains. Wish I could afford to buy in my lovely neck of the woods but fat chance of that.

As for the death penalty, I used to be for it, but for the worst crimes lean more in the direction of life without the possibility of parole. Yes, it's more costly to society in monetary terms but I find it hard to justify playing God with people's lives. Having said that, I can certainly understand why people would support the death penalty w.r.t. serial killers and child murderers proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. What scares me the most isn't even the death penalty but using the insanity plea in such cases and in other instances of violent crime. Now that's a real crime!

The last time a celebrated case (which used the insanity plea) in California was in the early 80's.

These pleas are very, very rare.

I am not aware of anyone recently in California who has been acquited of a capital case (death penalty) using the insanity plea.

Since this question was addressed to Europeans and I'm an American, I didn't look at it until I saw the action it was getting!

Now that I've read it, I'm surprised at the fairly parochial tone of so many responses from people of more-than-average worldliness. What would our less-traveled or less-interested in travel countrymen answer?

The Europeans I know who live in the US arrived anywhere from 50 years ago to 5 months ago. There is some similarity in the reasons most of them are here, and it always seems to be linked to career/economic opportunity. Whether recent emigres from the former Soviet Union or post-WWII era Brits and others, these people seem to have left there homes regretfully but hopefully. Some are pursuing a specific career (show business, science, business)and want to be at the center of things in their trade or art, others just seek an opportunity they haven't found at home. (For evidence of this one only has to look at the number of Irish who emigrated to New York in the 80s and 90s who have now returned to their newly prosperous homeland.)

Some of them find what they're looking for, others do not. The same could be said for the generation of my great-great-grandparents from Ireland and Germany, though the effort they made to get to "a new world" was considerably more strenuous, if not more difficult emotionally.

Both Europeans and Americans here should be able to admit that the "picture" emigres and expats (and travelers) have a place before they arrive is not necessarily true to what they find. Europeans in general have a much more fleshed out sense of American culture than Americans in general have of Europe, since popular culture is our biggest export - or at least our most influential. Whether that image is borne out in fact is another matter - similar to whether the romantic image an American might have of living on a vineyard in Tuscany or a beach in the south of France has any link with reality. But many Europeans have equally romanticized the US based on favorite films and books - as have midwesterners, like me, come to meccas like NYC for "a dream."

My overriding thought is that for most of us - in Europe or the US - it's not a question to which we'll ever have a personal answer. I can't simply move to Italy to live, whether I'd like to or not, making a living aside. Some Europeans still think they will find the US more fertile ground for entrepreneurship, some are trying to escape something, some want a bigger life and adventure. Some Americans feel the same.

Meanwhile, many Americans don't think much of their countrymen who would live anywhere else by choice - and clearly some of our European cousins can't imagine what their neighbors would hope for in the US.

What else is new?!

sorry my post was in reponse to Rebecka's.

Having read most of the posts, it´s funny to see that the vast majority consider Europe vs the US (sorry, America is the continent-but that´s another thread) as two countries. Europe is composed of a very wide variety of countries, while the US are a "united" nation and much more homogeneous.

I live in the Basque Country, Spain. This particular region of the world is quite different from those in Spain just a few miles away (in terms of food, taxes, health care, quality of life, roads, tv stations, language, housing, cost of life, popular songs, jobs...). I have little in common with a Polish, or an Albanian, or a German, and my reasons for migrating to the US would surely not coincide at all.

Pointless, but this question should be Why would a (British, Portuguese, French...) want to live in the US instead of (UK, Portugal, France,...? (and I´m not getting deeper going down to regions and nationalities).

It´s like when we say "latins" to refer to the whole of South America, such a varied mixture of races, colors, ways of life...

By the way, and strictly answering this question, I wouldn´t want to live in the US. Lived there for a year, been there several times, but despite its great people, no advantages over my present location.

Quite to the point, Mikelg

And historically that has been the case, hasn't it? Emigres (as opposed to those seeking to have the experience of living in another culture or the like) generally have quite a lot of motivation to leave behind their homes, family and friends, indeed everything that is comforting and familiar. In some cases war or other calamity has left it unrecognizable or unsafe. In others, survival demands leaving for a greener pasture. This is instinct as much as calculation. Just as, if there is plenty and security, the instinct is to stay.

Since much of Europe, collectively and in the separate realities of her many diverse countries, has been in a long period of economic prosperity, it stands to reason that many of the former attractions of the US (especially the US of the old "open door" to immigrants) have faded. Then there's the fact that the door is no longer open!

In one respect, Europe for the sake of this discussion has become more of a single entity - that is, citizens of EU members are free to work across borders, aren't they? This broader playing field on the continent means a more mobile work force, like we've had in the US. I can't tell you it will necessarily be a good thing - the very mobile populace is also more than a little rootless, a little less invested in it's towns and states.

>Isn't it time to concede that it is easier to attend a college or university in the US?


Yes, it might be easier. But it might be easier by necessity - since many career pathways that are accessible in Germany/France without university degree require one if ursued in USA. Which does not necessary mean that the specialists pursuing these careers are better prepared for their jobs in USA than in Europe.
(I have a comparison right now)

>This broader playing field on the continent means a more mobile work force, like we've had in the US. I can't tell you it will necessarily be a good thing - the very mobile populace is also more than a little rootless, a little less invested in it's towns and states.

The difference to US is however that moving across a border often means having to learn a new language. People do communicate in (simplified) english as language of necessity - but it is rarely THE working language.

An Italian going to the Netherlands for work might find English useful for the beginning, but won´t come around learning Dutch if s/he wants a measure of success.

Altamiro - you have just underscored a point I made earlier. Namely, that the US has higher expectations and is less forgiving of the less motivated.

MyriamC, I will make sure the South Dakotan cattle get your message :)

So... this thread is beginning to go a bit haywire. As they always do :) One question: I have <b>never</b> known any potential immigrant (I know many) to the States who worries about whether or not it has death penalty in some states! Whether you are for or against it (frankly, I have never thought about it carefully enough to have an opinion... call me clueless but I have far more immediate things to think about), why this always is such a big issue in these sorts of threads always surprises me.

Rebecka,

The death penalty is NOT cheaper, life without parole is much more cost effective..and a whole lot better, in case new evidence , suppressed eveidence , whatever, surfaces.

.http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost

We may not have had lots of religious conflict resulting in deaths..leaving out the Salem witch trials, but racial lynchings continued into the 50's. Now the new targets are gays and the homeless.

The SPLC has identified 844 hate groups operating in the US in 2006.

&quot;never thought about it carefully enough to have an opinion...&quot;
It IS something that most people have an opinion about.
But more than an opinion it was used to illustrate a difference in social values and responsibilities. I may not be capable of having an abortion but the attitude of my society to abortion says something about it...or education...or gun laws...or smoking... or health care...or freedom of speech...or war...(wonder what our Swiss friends say) or gay rights (I am surprised this has not been addressed).