"I couldn't see these "freedoms" as remotely comparable to the freedoms of expression, religion, assembly, press, etc."

My point exactly, and nude beaches are definitely growing in popularity in the US, although "regular" beaches are very conservative.

On the topic of freedom, for me the freedom I feel in the US is more 'psychological'; I am not trapped in the British class system and I feel as though I have much more control over my destiny than I did in the UK. I will put up with the lack of more tangible freedoms, such as going topless.

I would also take issue with those who have only visited the US on vacation and say they would never want to live here. I've found you really can't evaluate a country based on vacation travel. Ireland is a beautiful country to vacation in, but I lived there for two years and was almost ready to commit suicide! Totally different experiences.

bkluvsNola..... I'll have to come on down to NO to try your food. I live near Phoenix which is hardly the gastronomic capital of the US! I just find that I can't easily buy food that hasn't been processed over here. I have yet to eat any pork that actually tastes like proper pork, for instance.

Oh....and if I suddenly become destitute (which is pretty easy if you somehow lose medical coverage) then I probably would move back to the UK. Being poor in the US would be a nightmare.

bk - can you accept the opposite - that others might not view those freedoms that you cherish as highly?
Some feel that the freedom of expression allows for bigotry and intolerence.
Many do not want to live in a society that values the right to bear arms. This is a real deal breaker for a lot of people.

bkluvsNola: I agree 100% that the nudity on the beach is a superficial "freedom," and I would never want to live in Europe for this reason. However, what it tells me is that Europeans are not concerned with superficial things like this. We had an U.S. Attorney General once who ordered that a naked bust of a statue be covered with a sheet while he gave a press conference!

Smueller: I know the U.S. has such places; I've seen a couple of beaches like that in Hawaii. It's just that that's several thousand miles away from Chicago. When living in The Netherlands, it was a short 20 minutes away from the beach, where I saw nudity often. As far as the drugs and prositution, yes, you are correct....and, again, I would never use those as reasons for wanting to live in Europe. These to me, however superficial they may be, just gave an impression of more freedom.
As far as freedom of expression and religion, etc., I guess I don't see much difference here, at least in Western and Central Europe, where I have been to most often on my travels. As a matter of fact, I have seen very massive demonstrations in Europe, etc. You commonly see these on U.S. news (yes, you do see demonstrations like this in the U.S.) I don't really think there is much of a problem with freedom of expression.
Perhaps there is with the inability to say crazy things about Nazis and the Holocaust, but, again, I understand that. To me, that seems like saying that stricter drunk driving rules in Europe (Italy just lowered BAC to .05) lower one's freedom.
Anyway, I love living in the US; I loved living and travelling in Europe. I still stand by my feelings that I liked living in Europe better; this may or may not be because of "more" freedoms; it's more likely that I liked it more because of the adventure, the food, the culture, for some reason less stress, etc.
Having said all that, this is the last I will say on this thread. I really think this site is much more for talking about, reading, and enjoying people's travel experiences to different places, although I think the original question is still an interesting one!

I think this all boils down to personal experience/ choice/ desires. Once again--standing on my soapbox--how can you generalize??? I appreciate those who have moved from Europe to the USA who have given their reasons for being here.

That said, just Thursday night, my 30ish French friend, who has lived in the US since 2003, (came over with her savings and nothing else just to give it a go) and who just returned from a month in France, seemed even more convinced than ever that she would never return permanently to France, even saying that she would consider becoming an American citizen. She said she will always be French, but being an American is certainly possible. She also has not had an easy time here--I won't go into her story unless others want to know.

This last June we went to the Dordogne. We ate at a place owned by two Brits nearby our gites . After dinner, they came out and joined us for a few bottles of wine. I asked them, "Why would you leave Britain?" They laughed and said, "Why would we stay?" Then went on to explain how they were unhappy with their lives there. The other Brits at the table all agreed and totally understood...I was needless to say, surprised.

My 25 year old daughter is dating a guy who is originally from England. His family moved to the US 10 years ago, they love it here, miss their relatives, but will most likely stay here forever.

MY POINT: Who knows why an INDIVIDUAL decides to do something like this? Only the situation relevant to that person applies! One size does not fit all; One country doesn't fit all...

To:
Author: Tere
Date: 07/28/2007, 05:22 pm
I am an European and would NEVER live in America!!Been there several times and don't intend to go there soon again . Good old Europe

So you have been all over the US AND Europe? If not, you are incredibly closed-minded!

Hetismij, Understood.

I guess it really boils down to where one is from (not only the country in Europe but what economic class and exactly what city/locality). Roughly a fourth of my 200+ house subdivision neighbors in my (extremely cosmopolitan) university town are from Europe. Typically from large cities like London. Many frequently say how nice it is to be able to afford their large houses, the city amenities, the high quality schools for their kids, and the relative lack of crime (yes, really:) ).

Last but not the least, the dirt cheap (relatively) but great golf courses :) In fact I am about to go and try one out tomorrow morning :)

I think another reason why some might prefer to live in the US is that we are more accepting of foreigners. The US is an incredibly diverse nation. My immediate neighbors to the west are from Asia and speak minimal English, and yet I don't think of them as "foreigners." I think of them as Americans.

When I lived in Japan, it was obvious that I could have stayed there for twenty years and would have never been considered Japanese by my neighbors. Frankly, I don't think western Europe (especially France, less so for the UK) is much different, particularly for dark-skinned foreigners.

Happy to Travel
<<IMO this should be moved to the forum, this is not offering helpful travel advice. Lets get back to travel talk. >>

Unfortunately the Forum has become US centric and most posters are American - and (a generalisation) don't seem to be interested in the views of non-americans. Some aren't really interested in travel.

I get the impression that many of the Europeans who have posted here would not have seen this thread if it was started in the Fodorite Lounge. Therefore you wouldn't get this interesting discussion.

<<I think another reason why some might prefer to live in the US is that we are more accepting of foreigners.>>

Interesting theory which I had never considered before.

>>>"I couldn't see these "freedoms" as remotely comparable to the freedoms of expression, religion, assembly, press, etc."

Well, of course they are not. But US certainly doesn´t have a monopoly on freedoms of expression, religion, assembly and press. For example freedom of press in US is not feeling particularly well. Anyone interested can google for "reporters without borders" or just "freedom of press".

>>>Believe it or not, the concept of upward mobility is still very much real in the US.

Actually, it is not, even though people seem to cherish the myth. Again, if you google "social mobility" you will get the grim truth. UK has been used as an European example in most cases, but UK is not a very good "European" example. Like somebody said many posts ago, "Europe" is very much its individual countries. Here, one example of what is available in "social mobility":

"The new study is the latest in a clutch that challenge the complacent assumption that Britain is no longer class-bound, but a place where effort and innate ability count. The income people end up with in Britain, the London School of Economics has shown, is more closely tied to that of their parents than in Canada, Germany or Scandinavia. Only the US, despite the imaginative hold of the American dream, scores as badly." http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homea...099952,00.html

And Vietnamese boat people have done very well just about everywhere. So it seems to be because of Vietnamese, not because of the country where they settled.

>Frankly, I don't think western Europe (especially France, less so for the UK) is much different, particularly for dark-skinned foreigners.

Western Europe may not be as immediately inclusive for immigrants as some localities in USA are, but it is a huge leap from Japan. Believe me.

>And Vietnamese boat people have done very well just about everywhere.

Not to mention Iranian refugees.

To Wren:

You are the closed minded!I have been to 6 US States and it was enough for me not to want to live there and not to share your way of being. And dear , I live in an European country, have been to almost every country in Europe and nowhere I found people like you , that think you're the best. Have a great weekend!

>When I lived in Japan, it was obvious that I could have stayed there for twenty years and would have never been considered Japanese by my neighbors.

Btw. - would you consider yourself Japanese after 20 years there?

Let's add a slight modification to the original question - How many Europeans would like to live in the US for one or two years?>>>>>

Now that's a different matter. I would leap at the chance, as I would if the posting was pretty much anywhere in the developed world. I can put up with rubbish beer for a bit if I know it's not going to be forever.

Having said that, the USA would not be in my top ten preferred postings.

Wow, Tere, what an over reaction. I think Wren was spot on and doesn't seem close minded at all. Different strokes and all that.

As far as people thinking they are the best? Well, believe me, no country has the corner on that!

Cheers,
Jan, an American expat for 10 years who is tired of the European continent and ready to try another one...hmmm...perhaps Asia, just because.
:)

We're talking here about living in <b>The</b> US. I presume there's a bit of a difference between living on the beach in southern California and on a cattle farm in South Dakota.
In a previous posting I wrote that I'm perfectly happy in Europe which is true, although I have no desire to go spend the rest of my life in a tucked away village in Estonia or Romania, for example.

If I wanted to live any where other than the UK I could be enticed by France or Holland or New Zealand. I struggle with the idea of wanting to live in the USA rather than say Canada though even Canada is way down my list at about number 8.

I generally like lots of types of people but I struggle with differentiating between my expereince of working in the states and the public face of the USA. (for a county with such interest in marketing the &quot;brand&quot; is continuing to take a real hammering ove the past 100 years or so)

When it comes down to it I guess I fear being too close to people who have strong faith and freely available guns (I also don't want to live in the Lebanon or Isreal). At a level below that I would fear having an employment contract with such limited holiday entitlement.

So not sure why I would want to live in USA rather than NW europe. However if you asked the same question of say Bulgaria or Ukraine I might welcome a move

Hmm.... Faith and guns... :) You are right. Before breakfast every morning, all of us visit a church to pray, and right after that we target practice in our backyards. Thinking of giving my kids AK-47s for their birthdays later this year.

Just kidding, Bilbo :) Although I would like to know your top ten list (since you mention Canada at number eight).

MyriamC you're so right with that! It all depends on the destination! Not so much (in my opinion) if it's Europe or US. The same questions applies to Europeans between countries. For example why should a southern european move to north Europe and vice versa?

For example maybe i would find it easier to move to California (i'm from Greece) or N.Y. than Sweden or Finland. This is an example to show that it's not the continent that matters so much as the weather, lifestyle, people etc.