Interesting thread. An oh-so-civil! That's a nice change of pace. Anyway, I asked my husband. He moved here from Germany 12 years ago. He is IT with a German company with a big presence in America as well. At only 53, he felt that he was expected to retire in Germany. He didn't want to, so he moved. Has no intention of returning to Germany but does make murmurs or living permanently in France or Italy. He left Germany at 18 (right after his service) to Australia to learn English. It was at Christmas Island he learned about computers...lets see, that would be 1959 or so.
He could have moved anywhere he said, he chose the US because he just likes its "energy". He'll be 66 and still works full-time as a consultant and when not there, we're rehabbing a money pit.

>At only 53, he felt that he was expected to retire in Germany.

"Age-ism" is unfortunately widespread in German industrial companies. Not that older people are actively discriminated against, but many colleagues are surprized if you (over 50-55) want to carry on hard working instead of looking for a calm, easy desk job. I have seen it with my parents.
It is now changing massively though.

Kerouac - Your suggestion that the French and American systems are difficult to compare directly is one thing that we do agree on. There are many dimensions to that comparison.

I disagree, however, that the number of Americans pursuing two-year degrees "pads" the statistics in our favor. Unless a systematic bias can be demonstrated (i.e., a larger percentage of French Tertiary students are pursuing the equivalent of a four-year degree), I suspect that the inclusion of two-year degrees in the statistics does not favor one nation over another. If you are aware of any statistics that only include four-year degrees or higher, I would certainly like to see them.

hanl - It would be useful if you could offer a more specific reference than the main page of the OECD website (a link to an Excel document would be OK).

I found a US Department of Education report that I had from a couple of years ago titled "Comparative Indicators of Education in the United States and Other G8 Countries: 2004" (I've been interested in this subject for many years). This report partitions the statistics into narrower age windows and, consistent with your argument, France does look better when only the youngest age groups are compared - although statistics are not as close as suggested by the numbers you offered.

Germany, on the other hand, fares quite poorly - even worse than Italy (no offense to Italians). I am closer to conceding some middle ground on France than I am on Germany.

I say "closer" and "middle ground" because there are still some issues and discrepancies that bother me.

You stated that your statistics (38% France vs 39% US) were for the 25-34 age range. This seems awfully high for either country considering that most people pursuing an undergraduate degree will have succeeded by age 25. This is the age at which most Tertiary students are in graduate school.

Also, my US Dept of Education report states the following concerning French higher education - "All three types of upper secondary school (enseignement technologique, professional, and general) qualify a student to enter university," - so far this is consistent with your comments, as well as Kerouac's and Superheterodynes.

The sentence continues however, with the following - "although certain tracks are more likely to lead to university." It is not difficult to find similar statements in sources that are presumably more reliable than Wikipedia. Perhaps French baccalaureate holders possess a right that is usually, but not always, honored. Does the Sorbonne reject any students that apply?

smueller

As it is obvious you did not read my post I will copy it again. It clearly says there is no restriction on entry to universities for students with any baccalauréat:

Copy of my earlier post.

Here is a link to another OECD study: Economic survey of France 2007: Enhancing incentives to improve performance in the education system.

This clearly supports Kerouac and superheterodyne. <<Passing the baccalauréat – the end of secondary school examination entitles students to enrol in the university course of their choice (though entry is automatic only for universities within the student’s académie of residence). The fact that there is no selection on admission (except in certain special cases) while education is essentially free....>>

http://tinyurl.com/297gfl

From my POV, I would accept a 2007 OECD study over a wikopedia reference.

Is there any reason to keep flogging a dead horse?

Smueller, I can't link directly to the Excel table here, you'll need go to this page on the OECD website http://preview.tinyurl.com/2v2lrj
and then click on Indicator A1.

To find the statistics I mentioned in my post, you need to go to the worksheet entitled Table A.1.3a and then look at the column entitled Total Tertiary, which (unless I've completely misread the table!) gives the percentages by age group.

I only consulted the OECD data because that was the quoted source for the Nationmaster figures you gave in your earlier post (which are actually based on OECD figures from the year 2000).

Hanl

It's interesting that Germany is lower for the younger group. Do you think this because it takes so long to get a degree?

The most "educated" country in the OECD seems to be Russia.

I am not sure about the significance of this fact.

>Do you think this because it takes so long to get a degree?

Possibly. But why is it the same in USA? If the education is so competitive and quick I would expect a different result.

Well, it could be that the US has had a high level for a long time it has reached saturation point of the economy at this time. Don't you love stats, they throw up more questions than answers.

>Don't you love stats, they throw up more questions than answers.

Don´t believe any statistics you didn´t fake yourself!
(attributed to W. Churchill)

"It's interesting that Germany is lower for the younger group. Do you think this because it takes so long to get a degree?"
I wondered that too. Don't know much about the German education system, unfortunately - my knowledge is limited to the Scottish, English and French systems!

I think altamiro's comments about Russia are very a propos.
How possibly can you call one country more "educated" based on graduation statistics?
We used to joke about a degree in basket-weaving being given to jocks who got sports' scholarships.
I interviewed many people with "teaching certificates" from various universities in the world who we did not even consider.
You can still buy a degree over the internet.
Extreme examples but you can get the point.
I recall one football (soccer) player whose actual first name was "Doctor". The English sports announcer declared wryly, "I guess that is easier than going to university for 10 years."

Well, all I can really add is what my German au pair told me, and that was it takes something like 6 or 8 years to become a teacher. Although she was specialising as an English teacher.

I get lots of e-mails offering me American "degrees". Are such qualifications counted in the statistics quoted? Incidentally, I have never been offered bogus qualifications from any other country.

From a survey of the unsolicited e-mails I receive, it would also seem that the prime concerns of American society are sexual performance, cheap medication and replica watches. None of these are persuasive when it comes to emigration.

On another tack entirely, I have been quite happy with some of the specialist beers that I have drunk in the United States. My brother-in-law reports driving up the west coast and seeing a sign advertising "the largest micro-brewery" in whatever state it was.

>it takes something like 6 or 8 years to become a teacher.

To get tenure as a teacher - yes. You study the usual 4,5-5 years and add then 1-2 years as a low-paid "support teacher". Only then, depending on your performance, you are permanently employed.

>ira - we are talking "spreading hatred" not "saying unpleasant things" and we are talking about spreading hatred based on "color, race, religion or ethnic origin"<

I understand that, Rob.

The problem, as we see it in the US is, where do you draw the line between 'unpleasant' and 'hate'?

In addition, why limit your proscription to color, race, religion or ethnic origin? What about sexual orientation, dress, mastery of English, gender identification, mental or physical acuity.....?

Do you see the problem we have?

((I))

hanl - I may have misinterpreted your statistics. I believe your numbers refer to the percentage of 25-34 year olds that have acquired some amount of tertiary education, not to the percentage currently enrolled.

>but many colleagues are surprized if you (over 50-55) want to carry on hard working instead of looking for a calm, easy desk job.<

I'm with them. Retire as soon as you can. At worst, you can work 60% time for 100% salary.

>Don´t believe any statistics you didn´t fake yourself!
(attributed to W. Churchill)

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. B. Disraeli

ira - you have identified the dilemma
"where do you draw the line between 'unpleasant' and 'hate'?"

Interestingly enough "sexual orientation" was added in 2004
I suspect that Canada's laws in these matters of freedoms and rights might be a little easier to modify than those in the States.
Some day I would love to carry on this discussion with you over a bottle of wine and a plate of Andouillette, in a cafe in France.

OK hanl, Kerouac, and Superheterodyne. You are winning. I'm awfully close to conceding that a university education in France is currently as accessible as the in US.

This is a recent development and it remains to be seen if US-style tertiary participations rates can be sustained at government expense. Perhaps this achievement will persist. Perhaps it will falter in the face of a more conservative, budget-cutting administration in Paris.

In any event, it is clear that the US rate is not only high, but also stable. It has been sustained for a long period of time. I attribute this, in part, to the fact that it is a product of market forces and not social experimentation.

I am still far from making similar concessions for Germany. As we have collectively burrowed deeper into this issue, German higher education appears no better than before and possibly worse.

This "subargument" began when Hetismij insinuated that a university education was somehow less accessible in the US. This was offered as a reason for not wanting to live here. This still appears misguided. A university education in the US is at least as accessible as in any nation in western Europe, and probably more accessible than in most.