I have a few Orthodox Jewish friends who have lived (or currently live) in Israel and all of them have said they feel perfectly safe.

Is it really fair to make generalizations about places we've never lived? Or about what it's like to be an ethnic or racial minority in any country (unless you are actually one?)?

I can't even make generalizations about California, where I live. Like bobbymckaye, I've always loved California for its laid-back attitude and liberal politics. But a look at the 2004 county election results showed me a different side of CA that wasn't apparent to me in my little bubble.

You have entered into an argument that can't be won because life experience is personal and subjective. I may think racial minorities have it better in LA, and reports may confirm that. But my minority friends see otherwise.

I suggest we return to linda8's original question: why would a European want to live in America instead of Europe. And understand that the answers aren't based in fact... they're purely perception.

>how many immigrants' kids among US presidents ?

All of them. :)

Do you mean 1st generation native born?
Highly unlikely to happen anywhere.

However, Martin Van Buren was the 1st President born in the US. So that would qualify. :)

2nd generation:
Wilson

3rd generation?
Lincoln, Mckinley, Reagan
If she makes it, Hillary Clinton

((I))

Salaries, affordable real estate, broad opportunities, people who are friendly and don't look down on you.

A friend of mine is visiting from Germany and he said that if you speak German with an accent a lot of people will either give you hard time or look down on you. In the States if you speak bad English the Americans will say "Where did you learn to speak English so well?"

Overall prices. People come here from Europe and they can't believe how cheap everything is.

Many other factors as well.

"Although I seem to recall, within the past few years, a prominent Israeli politician advising French Jews to leave France for their safety".

And still France is home to the second largest Jewish community outside Israel and after the US.

Dunno. I don't want to live in America.

>I have a few Orthodox Jewish friends who have lived (or currently live) in Israel and all of them have said they feel perfectly safe.

I guess it depends on where you stay - assuming they didn't live in Sderot.
Haifa was considered pretty safe... until last year.

>Is it really fair to make generalizations about places we've never lived?

Probably not. We all do it anyway. It is quite a lot of work avoiding generalisations.
The trick is to find new generalisations when the old ones lose their validity, instead of desperately clinging to the old ones. :-)

>Or about what it's like to be an ethnic or racial minority in any country (unless you are actually one?)?

It isn't necessarily fair. But some posters on this board apparently think they know it all without even having visited the country...

On balance I prefer America's more liberal approach to freedom of speech. I'm thinking specifically of the time that, under pressure from Jewish groups, the Australian government denied a visa to the British Holocaust-denying historian David Irving. Around the same time Irving was allowed to visit the US for a lecture tour.

In Australia the ban had much the same effect as the picketing of R-rated films by outraged Christians - you can't buy that sort of publicity. If not exactly elevated to martyr status, Irving certainly received loads of free publicity.

In the US he was mostly ignored, and spent his time talking to small groups of nut cases in near-deserted church halls in rural Mississippi.

Subsequently Austria, in an apparent bid to confer serious martyr status on Irving, actually jailed him.

Interesting discussion.

Andouillette - OMG. Brings back memeories. Spent a summer working with DH in a relais in the Charente Maritime. Every 2nd staff meal was smelly Andouillette. It smells & tastes like a barnyard. I can eat almost any food but.... Sea Urchin is my other problem.

JSIMS

<<In the States if you speak bad English the Americans will say "Where did you learn to speak English so well?">>

I used to get this all the time when travelling in the States in the late 60s early 70s. Then Crocodile Dundee came out, and everyone realised Australians (not Austrians) spoke English (or a form of it). :)

So... altamiro, have you solved it for everyone yet ?:) What is the final conclusion? Just kidding :) I stay away from threads that go past 150 but what the hell, there is always a new day. Or a new night :)

Sarvowinner, the downside was that everyone in the US expected Australians to SOUND like Paul Hogan (or later, Steve Irwin). As a result, every second person we met assumed we were English.

Neil

I lived In Canada for 17 years, no one ever thought I was Canadian, always assumed I was English - I used to put it down to my elocution lessons in Wagga.

When I came back to Oz as an adult, everyone assumed I was American. It took about 5 years before I was accepted as Australian. Accents are funny things.

I prefer to identified with Paul Hogan than Steve Irwin (RIP).

In respone to Ira:

I may not understand your answer to the U.S. President remark but I think you are suggesting that the first president born in the U.S. was Martin Van Buren?

Not true - every single U.S president of the U.S was born in the U.S. as required by US law.
For example, starting with George Washington (Virginia) Jefferson (Virgina) Adams (Mass)

slangevar : "In London, I've seen large anti-semitic rallies in the streets"

I'm surprised that nobody else, e.g. flanner, has responded to this. When and exactly where did you see this ? I lived there for 10 years, read a quality newspaper every day and haven't heard of such a thing since the 1930s.

Of course, if you mean anti-Israeli-government-policies rallies, that's a different thing altogether.

Caroline,

during the Danish cartoon story there were demonstrations of Islamic fundamentalists in London, featuring among others openly anti-semitic slogans. These were well documented. These nutcases do exist, unfortunately.

I didn't see anything about ant-semitic posters in London - anti-western, yes. And I can't find any reference to any now - can you show me a link to one ?

Even if it did happen, it seems a coincidence that sangevar happened to be right on the spot at the time. And describing the incident as "large anti-semitic rallies" (plural) would certainly seem to be stretching the truth. But we'll see what s/he says him/herself.

There was one, not that large, rally in London at the time of the Danish cartoons affair, and a couple of people were sent to jail last week for the most violent of their slogans:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236730.stm


There are more relatively low-level expressions of anti-semitism than we would like, but a lot of the time it may just be anti-social teenagers scrawling slogans on walls rather than serious campaigns. Then again, there are plenty of people disguising racism as anti-Moslem opinions.

That ties in with my memory of what happened, Patrick - inciting murder etc yes, but against westerners in general - no mention of anti-semitism.

I take your point about people disguising racism as anti-Muslim (extremism) opinions. The main problems in Scotland recently have been mosques getting firebombed and random non-white people, such as a young Sikh, being attacked.

Hi nanabee,

>Ira:

I may not understand your answer to the U.S. President remark but I think you are suggesting that the first president born in the U.S. was Martin Van Buren?

Not true - every single U.S president of the U.S was born in the U.S. as required by US law.
For example, starting with George Washington (Virginia) Jefferson (Virgina) Adams (Mass)<

The people you cite weren't born in the US, as the US didn't exist at the times they were born.

From Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution:
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President;....

(There shouldn't be a comma after "States".)

((I))

I always get confused about what a semite is. Any one able to help?

Worse still when I last left Isreal the security staff asked me if I had spoken to any arabs. I admitted I didn't know what they looked like and the poor guy then described someone who looked just like himself.

Anyway back to Europeans wanting to live in USA. I liked the stats that showed that per head of population more USA want to come to UK than UK to USA. I wonder if that is true?

Hi Ira:
thanks for clarifying. it also provided interesting discussion with my husband who loves US history!

and bilboburger: to answer your question: yes you can count me as one from the US who would love to live in the UK!