Melissajoy

Missypie, I am Catholic and can answer a few of your questions. The significance of lighting candles is that if your granny makes you light the matches, you will probably burn your fingers. I did! When you grow up Catholic, nobody really tells you why there are candles and why you light them. Mostly it seems to be Granny's job to pass on this tradition, but she doesn't explain it. I do know, after growing up in Catholic schools, that we are NOT supposed to "worship" any saints or the Virgin Mary. You just sort of talk to them or ask them for favors. It is mostly a comforting thing, I think. The candles and flowers and statues just help to give a physical form to spirituality, which after all can't be "seen" otherwise.

Some Catholics never light candles. Sometimes I see older Catholics lighting them more often. I think when people are especially worried about something, they may feel more comforted by lighting a candle and saying a prayer as well. It is also a way to teach children respect...after all, I couldn't "see" my Granny's prayer, but I could see the candle glowing.

The more money a church has when it is built, the more you will see beautiful side chapels. Try saying the same prayer in a big cathedral, and then in a small side chapel. There is a different feeling entirely. In the small side chapel you are likely to feel a quiet, calming sense of intimacy. In the big cathedral, you are more likely to feel awed, perhaps even small and insignificant. When many worshipers are gathered in the big cathedral or church together, you feel like you are part of the huge family of God's many children.

Sometimes a church may have a special "visiting statue" which is placed in the side chapel and people are invited to come for a few moments when they have time to pray and meditate. Side chapels are better for any small group gatherings.

As for the saints, some people have their favorite saint. There are saints who are the patron saints for certain different things...I don't have my list handy. My mother used to insist that if she prayed to St. Anthony he would help her find things which were lost! I never learned that in Catholic school, but Catholic families sometimes have their own traditions that they pass down. My Granny was a Polish Catholic.

There are many individuals who help churches in various ways. You may never see the women who come to dust the pews. Some people donate flowers, especially if they have a florist shop. One artist who was a member of our church donated several huge banners to hang on the church wall according to the time of year (one for Christmas, etc.) Any good parish is always a community helping one another.

There are many traditions in the Catholic church which are NOT mandatory. It is not required to pray to the saints, for example. Luckily, you cannot pray to the WRONG saint. There are no rules about this. A Catholic is taught that only God is to be worshiped, NOT statues or saints or the Virgin Mary.

Hope everyone enjoys their visits to the beautiful Cathedrals in Italy...I know I'm looking forward to it!

Gardyloo

I, too, have found this thread incredibly interesting. Among the things I've learned by following some links is that St. Patrick was Scottish. Granted, imported as a captive youth, but I imagine generations of Rangers fans would have retroactive strokes to discover that.

Here in the land of the Crystal Cathedral, presided over by a distinctly non-Papish parson, the niceties of church-naming are lost on most. Fascinating, and thanks to all contributors.

And the Britney Spears and Pepsi items are priceless.

Shabat Shalom.

OReilly

St. Patrick was Scotish - I don't THINK so! He was likely British Celtic-Roman or perhaps French, but certainly not Scotish.

The Scotish connection would be the fact that the Irish monks brought the Christian faith back to Scotland and England following the Dark Ages.

Alec

My hair is already getting pretty thin prior to this exercise!
'Established' church is 'by law established'. A church doesn't become established by doing certain things, or by wanting to be, neither can an established church lose its 'establishment' by dropping many of the trappings of establishment. Only an Act of Parliament can disestablish a church, as it has happened with regard to the Church of Ireland (1869, effective 1871) and Church of England in Wales (1914, but delayed until end of WW1 in 1920 - when Church in Wales was formed). So the Kirk is still 'by law established', even though, to quote the official site, 'little remains of the Church's previous establishment', as I've outlined.

rex

A little off-subject - - but does any country in Europe have a "Pledge of Allegiance", and does it make reference to any god?

And as a corollary, are there analogous "constitutional" provisions in any countries in Europe which stipulate that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" as the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states?

I'd be particularly interested in answers to this question for France (since separation of church and state has been in the law recently, with respect to religious dress or other "public" displays of religion) or the countries that have re-formed their governments since the breakup of the USSR.

Best wishes,

Rex

Alec

Nothing like the US 'Pledge of Allegiance' I know of, as Europeans can be pretty relaxed about national allegiance. In UK, those who hold public office like civil servants, MPs and clergy of the (established!) Church of England have to take an oath of allegiance, which begins 'I swear by Almighty God that I shall bear true allegiance to Her Majesty...', but you have the option (except Anglican clergy!) of affirming without reference to the deity. Many National Anthems have reference to God, like UK, Holland and Switzerland.
As for State-Church separation, few countries actually lay it down in law, most notable example being France since 1905, which has long had anti-clerical movement (laique). Spain under Franco had a constituion that gave RC Church the status of state religion and many privileges, but has since given greater autonomy to other churches and religions. In Italy the Lateran Treaty of 1929 regularised the relationship between the Vatican and the Italian State. The State regards the office of Pope and Vatican state as inviolable, and gives RC Church the status of state religion, though the latter has been dropped by concordat of 1985. Religious instructions are still given in state schools, as in Spain. In Germany, there are official churches ('Evangelisch' Lutheran and RC) that receive church tax, collected by the state, and part of clergy stipends are paid from public funds. There are state churches in Scandinavia. After the fall of communism, many former Soviet satellite states, once avowdly atheistic, have granted freedom of religion and church ceremony often takes place at state occasions. While I don't know of any state church, there's often a ministry of religion that regulates church affairs.

Gardyloo

OReilly - Read it and weep -

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintp01.htm

I quote:
Profile: Kidnapped from the British mainland around age 16, and shipped to Ireland as a slave. Sent to the mountains as a shepherd, he spent his time in prayer. After six years of this life, he received had a dream in which he a command to return to Britain; seeing it as a sign, he escaped. Studied in continental monasteries. Priest. Bishop. Sent by Pope Saint Celestine to evangelize England, then Ireland, during which his chariot driver was Saint Odran, and Saint Jarlath was one of his spiritual students. In 33 years he effectively converted the Ireland. In the Middle Ages Ireland became known as the Land of Saints, and during the Dark Ages its monasteries were the great repositories of learning in Europe, all a consequence of Patrick's ministry.

Born: 387-390 at Scotland as Maewyn Succat

Died: 461-464 at Saul, County Down, Ireland

i_am_kane

According to the author of "How the Irish Saved Civilization," Thomas Cahill write that in 410 (or thereabouts) an Irish war party captured 16 yr.old Patricius (St. Patrick), and brought him to Antrim. Patricius was a Romanized Briton. He was six years in captivity before he escaped back to Britain.

jsmith

OReilly, you might want to correct these references to St. Patrick:

The following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Apostle of Ireland, born at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland, in the year 387; died at Saul, Downpatrick, Ireland, 17 March, 463.

And from the Catholic Forum:

Born
387-390 at Scotland as Maewyn Succat
Died
461-464 at Saul, County Down, Ireland

cigalechanta

What a great thread!! The best in a very long time. I was told we light the candles to pray for a loved or deceased one. I remember when giving torrone nouget, I thought it was covered with the host.

OReilly

Gardyloo:

I have never heard that his birthplace was Scotland. I was taught that he was a Celtic-Roman (or Romanized Briton, as I_am_Kane states) and was probably taken from West coast of England or Wales. It would be odd for him to be a Christian and a Scot, as it was the Romans who distributed the Christian faith throughout the empire and the Romans never spent a lot of time in Scotland as the Scots, God bless them, scared the hell out of them. Also, the name "Maewyn", sounds Welsh to me.

I guess we can agree to differ.

About 12 years ago, the Vatican were going through a "culling" of saints and the word got out that they might be demoting Patrick, due to lack of any hard evidence that ONE man actually converted an entire nation. There was holy murder and they backed off. Truth is, that it is more than likely there were a series of monks.

The ancient Irish Christian church is a fascinating topic. Unfortunately, I forget many of the details, but one little-known fact is that there was an independent Irish Christian Church, not under direct rule of Rome, up until the 11th century. As Ireland had never been under the rule of Rome, its rites were more in line with the original Christian Church and the eastern rites. St. Bridget of Kilkenny was the first, perhaps only, female "bishop" of the Catholic church. It is uncertain if she held the actually title, but it is generally agreed that she fulfilled certain functions of a bishop. The debate, of course, is whether she was allowed to consecrate the host. She had many convents and monasteries under her control. Another interesting fact is that at the Council of ? (Cannot remember ? Trent, Paris ?) a vote was taken by the church as to whether or not women had souls. The vote was in favour of women having souls, but was only carried because of the strong support of the Irish bishops.

A great irony is that the Norman-English invasion of Ireland in the 12th century was sanctioned by the Pope (Adrian the English pope, I believe) as a ?Holy War?, as they Irish had slipped back to their pagan ways.

Gardyloo

OReilly, my reading of the source material was that he was converted to Christianity once he got to Ireland, so I don't think we disagree.

The Irish church is indeed a fascinating topic, worthy of a thread all its own.

clairobscur

There's no such thing as a "pledge of allegiance" in France, nor, I believe in any other west european countries.

The concept of children reciting a pledge at school would be associated with former facist regimes and dictatorships by most people over here, and I think many would be very surprised to learn that such a thing exists in the US.

More generally, being too overtly patriotic tends to be frowned upon, as it's strongly associated with extreme-right organizations and parties. I would suspect that something perceived as healthy patriotism in the US would be perceived as agitated jingoism over here. Soccer games don't follow this rule. Blatant chauvinism and flag waving is allowed (if not required) during international competitions.



As for including "god",that would be even worse. As most people know, laicity is deeply entrenched in french culture, for various historical reasons, and for instance, an elected official publically quoting the bible or asking the citizen to pray would cause a major turmoil (and he probably would lose any prospect of ever being reelected).



Finally, concerning the constitution, there are two elements concerning religion :

-The article X of the 1789 "declaration universelle des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" , which has constitutionnal value in the french system :

"Nul ne doit être inquiété pour ses opinions, même religieuses, pourvu que leur manifestation ne trouble pas l'ordre public établi par la loi."

I'm not going to try to translate this accurately (I'm not exactly well versed in english legal terminology), but this article states roughly that nobody can be harassed/bothered for his opinions, *EVEN RELIGIOUS* as long as they don't trouble the public order.



-The first article of the constitution :

"La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l'égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d'origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances. [....]"

Which more or less translate as : "France is an indivisible , *LAICAL*, democratic and social republic. She secures the equality in the eyes of the law of all citizens, without distinction of origin, race *OR RELIGION*. *SHE RESPECTS ALL BELIEFS* [...]

i_am_kane

O'Reilly, is it Brigit of Kilkenney or Brigid of Kildare? She kind of upset the apple cart didn't she? (Rule of a woman over men was a perversion of the natural order.) She was a convert of Patrick's, and ruled as high abbess of an immense monastery.

I guess we're getting of the track of the original post, but maybe this is of interest to a few people.

OReilly

Gardyloo:
I have to admit that I am one of those skeptics that question the Patrick legend, whether he was from Dumbarton or Cardiff. I can't every remember my Mammy telling me to offer up a prayer to Patrick - maybe SHE knew he was a Ranger's supporter

I_am_Kane: As I said, I forget the details, so you are probably right re Kildare (also read ?How the Irish .. ? excellent!).

There was a wonderful TV documentary on PBS several years ago (Beneath the Veil?) about the role of women in the church, from its early days in Rome through to the present day. It was written by a Canadian female professor and traced the original ascent, and quick decline, of women?s influence in the church. Bridget was a major star, as was Hildegard of Bingen. In ancient Rome, Christianity was the religion of slaves and women. It would probably never have flourished but for the sponsorship of Helena, the mother of Constantine.

i_am_kane

OReilly, If PBS broadcasts the show again, I hope I catch it...sounds very interesting.

My Mammy didn't tell me to pray to St. Patrick either...that little Italian lady prefered St. Anthony!

See ya.

Budman

This thread has gotten a lot of hits. Is it worth reading?

Grinisa

Here is a great article that explains many things about the Catholic church, including candles and devotion to the saints: http://www.americancatholic.org/News.../YU/ay1094.asp
Saint Anthony is a very helpful saint; he's always helped me find a lost article when I pray "Tony, Tony come around, something's lost and can't be found." St. Joseph is also helpful if you want to sell your house quickly; just bury a St. Joseph statue in your backyard, facing the house.

indytravel

Grinisa your mentioning St Joseph and selling a house reminds me of a friend. She was living in Warrenville (Chicago suburb) in the early 90's and having trouble selling her townhome. She buried the requisite St Joseph in her backyard and sold within a week.

Odd thing is my friend is very, very Jewish. I called her on it. She shrugged her shoulders and said, "Hey, it worked!"

Mary_Fran

What a nice thread! Compliments to Missypie for phrasing your query in such a respectful, inquisitive, and nonjudgmental way. I kept waiting for someone to start bashing someone else's religion, but it didn't happen. Very encouraging sign of increasing tolerance and acceptance of diversity.

When my sister and I go to Europe each year, in each Cathedral we visit, we light a candle for our little sister, who died unexpectly a few years ago. I have a very real sense that her spirit is flickering in the candles we light throughout our trip and it makes her feel closer to us.