Hi again.

Had a chance to get some input from German colleagues, who recommended we narrowed down to the following towns. Would like to do a combine drive/train route, please help select A, B or C

Itinerary A: 2 nights Heidelberg, 2 nights Munich, 1 night Fussen, 2 nights Colmar, 2 nights Baden Baden

B: 2 nights Heidelberg, 3 nights Munich (depart early morning to see Neuschwanstein castle on the way to Konstance), 2 nights Konstance, 2 nights Baden Baden

C: 2 nights Heidelberg, 1 night Fussen, 2 nights Konstance, 2 nights Colmar, 2 nights Baden Baden

Any itinerary need to start with 2 nights in Heidelberg (to see colleagues there) and end with flight out of Frankfurt. Please comment, our ideal trip will be a combination of relaxation, hiking, stunning nature, good food, nice hotels. Thank you.

"...our ideal trip will be a combination of relaxation, hiking, stunning nature..."

I don't see very much of this in any of your itinerary options.

I thought except Munich all other towns listed are beautiful with great hiking, no?

Why are you so incredibly hard wired into hotelhopping every two nights?

Not hardwired to hotel hop. Those towns were recommended to us; when I look for them on a map, they make a nice circular driving tour back to FRA to catch our flight out. Will happily base ourselves in just 2 towns and do day trips but don't know where to base. I also don't like the idea of driving 2 hours day trip to see a town, and drive back 2 hour that night just to go back to the base hotel. Would you recommend this instead?

2 nights Heidelberg
4 nights Cochem
3 nights Baden-Baden

You have to leave Munich, Heidelberg, Konstanz and Colmar and Baden-Baden to get out into "stunning nature" for a decent hike. Füssen isn't bad for that but you have only one night there - or 0 nights at all on a stopover in between two long drives. It's not just about hiking. Relaxation? Where does that enter the picture on such a rigorous itinerary?

The point (whichI thought you "got" before but now have abandoned with this new plan which is basically your original plan) is that you are keeping an unrealistic travel schedule - packing, unpacking, checking in, checking out, traveling traveling traveling over far too many ground miles.

"food, culture, nature, museums, monuments, spas, scenic hikes, markets..."

It's not a problem that you want it all, but with just a little over one week, across way too much territory, and with too many stops, your odds of success fall precipitously.

I see we have cross-posted.
I've already suggested the Rhine/Mosel and Franconia (northern Bavaria) as bases.

You aren't going to get much out of Baden-Baden as a base town IMHO. B-B is a day trip from Heidelberg if you really want to see it. But there are some other fine outings you could take from Heidelberg if you just stayed in/near Heidleberg 2-3 additional days.

Bergstrasse, Heppenheim, wine towns: The Bergstrasse
Bad Wimpfen: https://www.orte-bw.de/grafik/upload..._2010_1040.JPG
Michelstadt:

Neckar River Valley...

Hirschhorn -

Burg Guttenberg - https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...rttemberg.html

Other options: Cities & villages in the Neckar valley.

Then add a few days in the Rhine/Mosel region. Boppard is a good base town for both river valleys in most cases.

Fussgaenger, really appreciate your comments. I thought I "got it" too but then couldn't find places to base and then kept seeing names of those towns pop up. Many travel sites have 7-9 days itineraries and I also saw "romantic rhine" road trip suggestions that inspired that itineraries above that no one on Fodor here seems to like. I see suggestions to base in Mosel/Rhine and Black Forest, but don't know actual town I should book a hotel in.

If not Baden-Baden, then where should I look for hotels to travel through the black forest? All the travel sites mentioned Baden Baden when I type in black forest.

Should I do 3 nights Cochem, 2 nights Fussen, and 4 nights Heidelberg? Every travel site makes it essential that someone traveling to southern Germany for the first time should stay in Munich and Fussen, but on this board they are not recommended, so I'm confused.

Thank you!

Here is Rick Steve's days 1-12 best of Germany (southern portion). I'm trying to hit some of the same places on my itinerary, but instead of Bacharach, I had more nights in Heidelberg because we have friends there we want to see. also RS's route doesn't work as well for me because we have to fly in and out of FRA in 10 days/9 nights, so I thought a solution was to skip Rhine Valley, add Munich and make it more of a circular route back to FRA.

Day 1: Fly into Frankfurt, pick up car, drive to Rhine Valley (sleep in Bacharach)

Day 2: Rhine Valley (sleep in Bacharach)

Day 3: To Mosel Valley (sleep in Beilstein or Trier)

Day 4: Mosel Valley and/or Trier (sleep in Beilstein or Trier)

Day 5: To Baden-Baden (sleep in Baden-Baden)

Day 6: Relax and soak in Baden-Baden (sleep in Baden-Baden)

Day 7: Drive through the Black Forest (sleep in Freiburg or Staufen)

Day 8: To Bavaria and Tirol (sleep in Füssen or Reutte)

Day 9: Bavaria/Tirol and castles (sleep in Füssen or Reutte)

Day 10: More Bavaria/Tirol, then to Munich (sleep in Munich)

Day 11: Munich (sleep in Munich)

Day 12: More Munich, or side-trip to Salzburg (sleep in Munich)

I'd do a stop in Baden-Baden for a few hours en route to a better situated Black Forest base. Michelin green guides are almost as good a source for where to stay and go from bases as is Fussganger (seriously!). Steves' itinerary is about all one-night stops - relocating is such a pain - slow down and yes do your thinking of say 3 bases for 9 days.

I'm very familiar with Rick Steves' suggestions for Germany and Europe more generally. IMO Rick's most valuable contributions are...
a.) ...his success in encouraging novice travelers to see Europe; his PBS travel series makes travel look fun and doable, and he comes off as completely knowledgeable and trustworthy.
b.) ...his packing advice. VERY smart.
He seems like a really nice guy; viewers and readers - and grandmothers everywhere - want to just eat him up, and they follow his instructions in trance-like obedience.

But the bus tour you cited and Rick's priorities for travelers in Germany put travelers on a race around the country and make sure their time is spent in very touristy spots and with hordes of international tourists. His tips also play on all the stereotypes of Germany and Germans that we've all acquired through our schooling and media back home.

You CAN do the same tour on your own, but then why not just take a bus tour? The better question is why trade all that time you could spend exploring places on two feet for many long hours on a train or in a car? Traveling around is enjoyable - up to a point - but it's largely unnecessary in Germany. You can toss darts at a map of Germany and nearly every place you hit will be worthwhile and require more time than you might have planned. And wherever you go, the more time you aren't stuck in a moving vehicle, the more you will experience.

You've read Rick Steves. Now do as Palenqe suggests and read some different travel resources. Untours is an interesting company that sets people up with 1 or two weeks in the Rhine Valley. Rick can't see fit to put you there for even 2 full days, it seems.

https://www.untours.com/rhine

There's a reasonably well-done 5-day itinerary for the Rhine Valley here:
https://www.untours.com/rhine

And these don't even include the Mosel destinations.

So the idea of staying 3-4 nights in a place surrounded by things to see and do (like the Rhine) is hardly revolutionary. Cochem and surroundings would be OK for 3 nights (though I think Boppard would be better for the area.) Heidelberg and surroundings won't bore you with 4 nights there. It's a very long way to Füssen - If you choose that, I wouldn't spend fewer than 2 nights there. But the Rothenburg area is much closer and could also eat up your time - many lovely places to visit in that area as well and much closer to FRA. Your new 3-base plan might be doable but you have some long train rides to deal with.

What's must-see in Germany? Some say Berlin, Munich, Rothenburg, or all of those. I say none of those - and nothing else either. I've spent 4 decades visiting Germany, but unlike Rick, I don't feel comfortable telling you what's important to see. It's a personal choice. You really can do your own trip based on your own needs and interests. There's no exit test.

Let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - tours are great for many folks who would never ever go on their own - the vast number of Americans traveling to Europe I'd say. And, they satiate most folks' desires to see as 'see' as many as different places as possible in a short time and have everything done for them. Great for most but I would not look at any tour itinerary as a model for independent travelers -especially the one you give above.

Look, let's get one thing straight. Rick Steves is c***. He doesn't know anything about the places he describes. Germany has seven old towns which are designated UNESCO world heritage, none of them features in his book. Mrs Jo who does guided tours of Frankfurt could tell you a story how she sent corrections to them about the gravest mistakes how long they needed to do anything and how his walk is still a terrible idea. He basically grabs the most cliche sugary destinations and bundles them up in terrible rushed itineraries. It's deeply regrettable that somebody like him has such an influence on the US market.

So if we shall continue here forget this name and his suggestions.

Fussganger has already pointed out in post 27 where you can go from Heidelberg. The Neckar is pretty, do a boat trip, do the climbs to the castles in Neckarsteinach and Hirschhorn for views. Take another trip to Bad Wimpfen. Go up north to Bensheim Auerbach and hike up to the impressive castle ruin and then relax in the Fürstenlager park nearby. These are all perfectly picturesque places. If you would want some culture for a change and maybe a cooler place (we have currently a brutal heatwave mounting) then visit Speyer or Worms and cool down in their cathedrals, the first one is an UNESCO world heritage site. Or if you'd like to see some palaces, visit those in Bruchsal and Rastatt. Or go to Maulbronn monastery which is another UNESCO world heritage site.

Basically we are suggesting you to slow down. You are not gaining anything by changing places every two nights, you're just stressing yourself out and wasting time in transit. Do four nights in Heidelberg and four nights elsewhere and you're fine.

Here's the link I failed to provide above for 5 days on the Rhine:
https://www.holidaystoeurope.com.au/...e-rhine-valley

Thanks to you all. So skip the Neuschwanstein castle? I don't love castles and tour buses but such pressure to conform...

New new options:
A: 5 nights in Boppard, 4 nights in Heidelberg
B: 5 nights Oberstdrof or Garmish (interested in hiking and scouting out a ski town for if we return in the winter), day trip to somewhere in Austria, Konstance which a colleague recommended, and see the big castles, 4 nights in Heidelberg
C: 5 nights Freiburg (do black forest, day trip to Konstance, Colmar and Strasburg which colleagues suggested), and 4 nights Heidelberg

So I basically am now down to choosing between river/boats (A), castles/mountains (B), and lake/black forest (C), am I right or did I misunderstand these regions? I like all three, so it might come down to hotels. Which town base can offer the nicest "relaxed luxury" hotel for under $300 euro a night?

Thank you!!

Which town base can offer the nicest "relaxed luxury" hotel for under $300 euro a night? >

All or none!