"PLEASE DO NOT use the donkeys (in Santorini) for transportation…these poor animals are abused on a regular basis. The donkey men use sticks with nails to prod or whip them into moving along their way.”
Mar 9th, 2006, 07:53 AM
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"PLEASE DO NOT use the donkeys (in Santorini) for transportation…these poor animals are abused on a regular basis. The donkey men use sticks with nails to prod or whip them into moving along their way.”
I am going to Santorini this Spring and am so happy I read this. I for sure will not and had to put this out there for others that may not have seen the thread where I got this quote. I am a member of PETA and many other animal protection organizations and understand that so much abuse takes place where we are helpless to stop. But this is one case where we can do something. ECONOMICS is very influential! Thanks to Murphy89 and Brotherleelove2004 for bringing this up again.
Mar 9th, 2006, 03:37 PM
#6
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Akin -- Thank you for posting this. I think it's important that people be aware of the mistreatment of animals being used and abused purely to serve tourists. Selfish people may opt to ignore or post rude replies, but it's useful input for the rest of us.
angel(not)iki - This is a travel forum used to discuss experiences while travelling and state opinions based on those experiences. You must be new here.
angel(not)iki - This is a travel forum used to discuss experiences while travelling and state opinions based on those experiences. You must be new here.
Mar 9th, 2006, 03:55 PM
#7
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, the OP said nothing about PETA. Second of all, some of you are just cold hearted. There are elephants in Thailand who are fed amphetamines until they're worked to death, there are bears in China who are kept in cages for 20 years so small they can't move and are in agony with open holes in them to harvest their gall bladders. For you not to want to realize these types of things are going on and that they are wrong is to accept ignorance. Excuse me, that would be IMO.
Mar 9th, 2006, 03:58 PM
#9
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it the message you find offensive or just the source? Akin is just quoting a seperate thread which neither he nor PETA to my knowledge had part in. Its just information you can do what you will with it.
Mar 9th, 2006, 04:31 PM
#10
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHERE did you read this "Fact"
I was in Santorini a few years ago and walked won the Donkey path (with the donkeys coming up and down) I saw NO evidence that the Donkeys were beeing whipped at all (They don't really move very fast LOL!) I did see some whips, but they were the "whip" type used by cowboys and I find it hard to figure out where they put the nail?
I was in Santorini a few years ago and walked won the Donkey path (with the donkeys coming up and down) I saw NO evidence that the Donkeys were beeing whipped at all (They don't really move very fast LOL!) I did see some whips, but they were the "whip" type used by cowboys and I find it hard to figure out where they put the nail?
Mar 9th, 2006, 04:43 PM
#11
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mar 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
#13
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,807
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm the original poster of this information. I've seen the mistreatment of the donkeys many times. The donkey "drivers" carry sticks with small sharpened nails imbedded into one end so they can prod the donkeys when they are slow, sluggish or just refuse to move. If you didn't know it was happening there is no reason you'd ever look for it. The donkeys are also "whipped" with these same sticks for the same purpose. I've not ever seen an actual leather or braided rope whip used. I realize now that "whip" is a misleading choice of words, but the fact remains that these animals are abused to provide the tourists with yet another "quaint and charming" experience of the "traditional Greek lifestyle," now mostly for the cruise ship passengers who come ashore below Fira and want a photo of themselves astride one of these unfortunate animals as a souvenier of their holiday adventure. As long as there are paying customers, these animals are forced to run up and down the many steps to and from the village regardless of the heat or how many trips they've already made.
I also saw one collapse from exhaustion and its owner stood over it, shouting and trying to beat it into standing up when in fact it was so weak it was obvious it could not. Eventually someone stepped in and stopped him, but it died right then and there.
The donkeys have been around as pack animals for centuries. They are necessary for the transfer of all sorts of goods and foodstuffs from the tops of the cliffs to the parts of the villages inaccessible by motorized transport, something that still happens every day. I'd prefer that they weren't used at all but understand that there is a need for them as "beasts of burden." I draw the line, however, when they're exploited for the sake of tourism, and especially when in the case of Fira there is a modern funicular to carry those passengers who are not willing or able to walk up the cliff under their own power. I wonder how much they'd appreciate someone coming up behind them with a sharp stick to make them move faster.
I also saw one collapse from exhaustion and its owner stood over it, shouting and trying to beat it into standing up when in fact it was so weak it was obvious it could not. Eventually someone stepped in and stopped him, but it died right then and there.
The donkeys have been around as pack animals for centuries. They are necessary for the transfer of all sorts of goods and foodstuffs from the tops of the cliffs to the parts of the villages inaccessible by motorized transport, something that still happens every day. I'd prefer that they weren't used at all but understand that there is a need for them as "beasts of burden." I draw the line, however, when they're exploited for the sake of tourism, and especially when in the case of Fira there is a modern funicular to carry those passengers who are not willing or able to walk up the cliff under their own power. I wonder how much they'd appreciate someone coming up behind them with a sharp stick to make them move faster.
Mar 9th, 2006, 05:20 PM
#14
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,296
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read both this thread and the one it originated from where "brotherleelove" and "DenverDice" provided their personal experiences.
For me it is always about informed consent. I appreciate any knowledge of this sort.
In fact, it was on the Carib board that I first learned of the short life span of dolphins that are kept in captivity and used for dolphin rides.
I appreciate the information. Thanks for your OP, Akin.
For me it is always about informed consent. I appreciate any knowledge of this sort.
In fact, it was on the Carib board that I first learned of the short life span of dolphins that are kept in captivity and used for dolphin rides.
I appreciate the information. Thanks for your OP, Akin.
Mar 9th, 2006, 05:38 PM
#15
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a suggestion for future use.
WHe the title of your thread takes on the feel of a lecture, you automatically turn off readers (it's called PR, notice how the newspapers do it!)
So... for effective attention getting "Abuse of Donkeys in Santorini" would have been much more effective then the tirade you wrote.
WHe the title of your thread takes on the feel of a lecture, you automatically turn off readers (it's called PR, notice how the newspapers do it!)
So... for effective attention getting "Abuse of Donkeys in Santorini" would have been much more effective then the tirade you wrote.
Mar 9th, 2006, 05:43 PM
#16
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I have no plans to go to Santorini in the near future, I appreciate your post. People who throw around terms like "guerillas" and "terrorists" know nothing about PETA or the good it does to end animal suffering throughout the world. It is certainly easier to make fun of the things one is ignorant about than to learn about them. angeliki, janisj, and Zeus can turn a blind eye to animal suffering if they choose to, but they should really spare us all the sneering attitude about it. Apathy is nothing to be proud of.
Mar 9th, 2006, 06:10 PM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If you didn't know it was happening there's no reason you would ever look for it."
Brotherleelove, if observations are to be credible, they must be unbiased. In other words, one must be careful not to look merely to confirm what one has already concluded is happening, since to do so nullifies the whole point of observation in the first place.
That you made more observations than CarolA might make your sample size more statistically valid, assuming, of course, that you didn't merely inadvertently make multiple observations of one and the same operator, as opposed to taking a truly random sample of all the operators out there. (By the way, the points raised by your fellow posters re elephants in Thailand, etc. etc. might be compelling, but aren't relevant to the case of donkeys in Greece.) Furthermore, without proper controls, i.e careful precautions taken to control for bias, you run the same risk of doing what you claim CarolA did. Namely, of seeing not what happened, but what you expected (feared) to see.
That said, I see no reason why tourism can't be ethically conducted, especially since when it comes to reinforcing behaviour, nothing succeeds like economic incentive. If donkey-ride operators are rewarded for adhering to a code of ethics practice with their donkeys (much like some whale-watching outfits agree to adhere to certain industry standards) then this would be a much more effective means of improving the lot of donkeys than an out-and-out boycott.
Of course, I am assuming that the objective has been fully and honestly disclosed. Groups such as PETA are notorious for 'upping the ante' - i.e. having secured one concession from its target group, it then presses for further concessions, thus undermining its credibility as a negotiator. I have heard that PETA just doesn't want to improve conditions of working animals, it doesn't want animals to work at all. As a domesticated working animal myself, I am not unsympathetic to the idea in principle
except that I know that if it were ever put into practice it means I won't eat - nay, not so much as an alfafa sprout.
Brotherleelove, if observations are to be credible, they must be unbiased. In other words, one must be careful not to look merely to confirm what one has already concluded is happening, since to do so nullifies the whole point of observation in the first place.
That you made more observations than CarolA might make your sample size more statistically valid, assuming, of course, that you didn't merely inadvertently make multiple observations of one and the same operator, as opposed to taking a truly random sample of all the operators out there. (By the way, the points raised by your fellow posters re elephants in Thailand, etc. etc. might be compelling, but aren't relevant to the case of donkeys in Greece.) Furthermore, without proper controls, i.e careful precautions taken to control for bias, you run the same risk of doing what you claim CarolA did. Namely, of seeing not what happened, but what you expected (feared) to see.
That said, I see no reason why tourism can't be ethically conducted, especially since when it comes to reinforcing behaviour, nothing succeeds like economic incentive. If donkey-ride operators are rewarded for adhering to a code of ethics practice with their donkeys (much like some whale-watching outfits agree to adhere to certain industry standards) then this would be a much more effective means of improving the lot of donkeys than an out-and-out boycott.
Of course, I am assuming that the objective has been fully and honestly disclosed. Groups such as PETA are notorious for 'upping the ante' - i.e. having secured one concession from its target group, it then presses for further concessions, thus undermining its credibility as a negotiator. I have heard that PETA just doesn't want to improve conditions of working animals, it doesn't want animals to work at all. As a domesticated working animal myself, I am not unsympathetic to the idea in principle
except that I know that if it were ever put into practice it means I won't eat - nay, not so much as an alfafa sprout.
Mar 9th, 2006, 06:38 PM
#18
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What PETA does is not relevant. Whether they are good negotiators is not relevant. What their ultimate goals are is not relevant.
The sole issue is whether these particular mules are mistreated and for that you have the personal testimony of a several members of this community.
These individuals saw what they saw and presumably were not involved in a per reviewed research project. So nitpicking their methodology is a bit much.
The sole issue is whether these particular mules are mistreated and for that you have the personal testimony of a several members of this community.
These individuals saw what they saw and presumably were not involved in a per reviewed research project. So nitpicking their methodology is a bit much.
