PalenQ

NEXT - DOMESTIC TRAINS WITH MANDATED RESERVATIONS AND SUPPLEMENTS

FRANCE - Nearly all TGV trains and the fairly new TEOZ trains require reservations - 3 e in either class. (TEOZ are non TGV trains running on conventional tracks - TGVs are high-speed trains often running on an all-new right of way at speeds of up to nearly 200mph.)

GERMANY - ICE Sprinters 16e/11 e - 1st class includes complimentary paper and catering. No other domestic trains in Germany require reservations and there are only a handful of ICE Sprinters, designed for business types and basically running only between Frank-Cologne and Hamburg i believe. The average tourist will never encounter one and there will be regular trains over the same route at least hourly with only marginally slower times.

NORWAY - all long distance trains - 6.30e in either class.

SWEDEN - X2000 17e/7e - light meal included in 1st class

FINLAND & DENMARK - no domestic trains require reservations or supplements

TBC- Eurail Timetable; bahn.de

PalenQ

ITALY presents the biggest argument that every time you take a train with a railpass you have to pay a lot of extra money.

And this is often true for the trains most folks end up taking the ESI or EuroStar Italia high-speed trains running between key cities such as on the Rome-Florence-Venice and Rome-Naples and Rome-Florence-Milan and Milan-Venice routes.

These trains cost 15 e to ride with a pass in either class for the older ESI trains and 20 e for ESI AV (Naples to Rome basically) and 25 e for the newer TBiz trains and 5 e in each class for the Inter City Plus (IC+) trains - reservations on all being mandatory before boarding the train. EC (EuroCity) trains that go on from Italy to Austria or Germany also demand a 5 e reservation for travel inside Italy.

But there are often other not that much slower trains on some routes you can just hop on so you usually do not have to take the ES family of trains though most do because of the convenience (other trains may require changes of train en route, or serve secondary stations out of the town centers, etc.)

TBC - More on the Italian train/pass situation as it is the one that gets the most complaints from returning travelers.

PalenQ

MORE ON ITALIAN TRAIN RESERVATIONS/SUPPLEMENTS

Due to the high cost of using the ES Italia trains - 15 to 25 euros even with a pass Italian railpasses are rarely a great deal unless you are traveling extensively in Italy by train. And for tho with Eurailpasses in Italy you can often sidestep the ES trains and take either IC trains or IC+ trains that may not be all that much slower.

For example last year i went from Florence to Venice on an IC train that i just boarded without any reservation fee, etc. But i had to take a local train two miles from the main Florence station to its suburban Rifredi station to hop the IC train to Venice as that train did not serve Florence's main in-city station. And it took me to Venice's Mestre station, about five miles across the lagoon from the Santa Lucia station in the heart of Venice. Again i had to take a shuttle train from Mestre the final five miles into Venice.

Total travel time was about one hour more than if i had gone from city center station to city center station as the ES trains do - but in addition to saving 15 euro i did not have to make a reservation, etc. - just headed to the main Florence station and hopped a train to its suburban Rifredi station, etc.

And from Rome to Naples i took an IC+ train each way - reservations mandatory but only costing 5 euros - not the 20 or so on the about 45 minute faster ES AV train.

And from Rome to Florence i just hopped on a regional train that took about an hour or so longer than the hi-speed ESI train.

So there are alternatives - that said most first-time travelers like to take the fastest trains, etc. and will find that with a railpass this is rather pricey and thus the complaints we hear about having to pay loads of extra money to get on those trains.

Unfortunately more and more train services are becoming ESI trains and less and less IC but for the present there are still viable alternate options.

PalenQ

SPAIN TRAINS & PASSES
The train in Spain is the other Pain for railpass holders and what i consider are excessive fees for passholders on some trains:

AVE, Talgo 200, Avant = 23.50 e/10e - 1st class incl drink and meal

Euromed, Alvia, Alaris, Altaria = 23.50e/6.50e - 1st class incl drink and meal

Arco, Talgo Diurno (day), IC 10e/6.50e

And unlike Italy there are few realistic alternatives to these fast trains.

dustieboots

PalenQ. Thank you for all your sharing of 'rail travel'information.

I am a novice rail/bus traveler.
If I may ask for your thoughts... my wife and I are on a trip from Canada, March 3-22, arriving in Lisbon and returning home from Barcelona. We want to cover the southern part of Portugal - Lagos and Salem, then onto Seville, and then to our departure city of Barcelona, all with side trips at as we decide on the moment! From all the info I have read, it seems we should be able to acheive economical rail/bus transportation in this off season period by booking rail and bus travel on arrival and at each stop, verses advance purchase of 'rail passes' for each of us before departure. Are we correct in our thinking?
We have past european travel experience but limited rail /bus experience.

PalenQ

Not necessarily upon arrival IMO but in advance thru online railway web sites - especially the Spanish trains at www.renfe.es - Spanish railways sites that has big discounts that however may sell out before the train. That said many folks have problems using the site - but also some Spanish rail experts will help you out on Fodor's if you ask.

You can at least get the fares in euros for walk up tickets as you go along and then compare them with the Iberic and or Spain (alone) Railpass, which i think may be a bit too expensive to justify even at full fares but i am not positive so check real fares at www.renfe.es

Lisbon-Algarve-Seville is best done by a combo train to Algarve then a bus from Faro direct to Seville (this bus would not be covered by any railpass).

OK? Please put any questions here. Cheers

PalenQ

Trains, buses in Portugal are so cheap that you just show up and buy at the station. Trains are better IMO Lisbon to Faro and anywhere along the coast but to go on to Seville by train is tricky so try to hop the once or twice daily direct Favora-tavira-seville bus.

PalenQ

the alternative to the Faro to Seville direct bus takes literally all day - and i've done it

Take the train along the Algarve cost to the end of the line in Portugal and then take a ferry across to the Spanish town on the other side and then walk about a half-mile to a bus station to get a bus to Huelva where you can take a train to Seville.

I did it because i like trains and was in no hurry but the bus is best for most.

PalenQ

CONTINUING MANDATORY RESERVATION AND SUPPLEMENTS FOR RAILPASS HOLDERS

SLOVENIA - ICS trains - on the train you pay 4.50 e/2.50 euros (1st/2nd cl)

ROMANIA - IC trains 4.2e-19.8 e/3.5 e-18.2 e (euro equivalents in local money) - price depends on distance traveled.

POLAND - TLK, IC/EC and EX trains require seat reservations which are free if made in Poland.

CROATIA - ICN ZAGREB-SPLIT 5e/5e; IC ZAGREB-RIJEKA/OSIJEK/CAKOVEC 1e/1e

HUNGARY - IC Trains 2.5 e/2.5e; IP trains 0.80 e/0.80e;

Note unless noted no other trains in the countries noted in the part of the thread require reservations though most long-distance trains can be reserved on an optional basis. But you can usually always board even if seats are all full.

PalenQ

CZECH REPUBLIC - SC (Super City) Trains 7e/7e

GREECE - ICE trains - 11.90e to 41.20 e/ 9.3 e-33.3 e - depending on distance

and thus takes the cake of potential the most outrageously expensive supplements in Europe for railpass holders.

PORTUGAL Alta Pendular Trains - 4e/4e
IC Trains - 4e/4e - reservations can only be made in Portugal.

And that's it, as of now - source: 2009 Eurail Map (which you should get free with your pass though some agents may be aloof to mail it if it raises postage fees. Demand it.

dustieboots

PalenQ......thankyou so much for the insight and guidance on train/bus travel in Portugal and then onto Seville, Spain. Sincerely ..........Lou, Calgary.

bklynbrn

Good evening,
I need some assistance. I'm planning to travel from Munich to Vienna RT, on July 19, 2009 (departing from Munich), and returning to Munich on the 23rd. I understand that Rail Europe is quite expensive, that I should check into the DB directly. We may want to stop on the way back overnight. What is the best method to do this?

nancicita

bookmarking

PalenQ

bklynbrn:

No need to buy tickets from Rail Europe for these trips - not only likely more but these tickets are easily available in Munich or Vienna IME.

1- Go to www.bahn.de (Germany Railways website) and this will give you the Munich-Vienna fare in Euros and it will also say 'fares available from' perhaps 39 euros or so - check availability to see if these limited in number SPAR (discounted online) fares are available for trains you want to take. If not you have to pay full fare and that is noted. You can print your own tickets i believe with a credit card from bahn.de - but for full fare you can always get that once in Munich as well i'd think without any problem.

Round trip fares IME are generally just twice the single fare (but i am not all that well versed in online discounted fares on bahn.de but some other Fodorites are) - but if you want to stop off on the return then just buy a one-way anyway.

For the discounted fares i believe you cannot break your journey like you usually can on a full fare ticket.

So say you want to stop in Salzburg on the way back you write a Vienna-Salzburg ticket in Vienna and then Salzburg-Munich ticket which you can also buy in Vienna or wait until Salzburg (so many trains rarely any problem getting on)

Though you may scour www.bahn.de for Salzburg-Munich discounted online fares. Or use the bargain Bavarian Pass, where for i think 39 euros up to five people can travel anywhere for the whole day and night in Bavaria, but you are restricted to regional trains - meaning you may take 2.5 hours to go Salz-Munich rather than 1.5 hrs on express trains where the Bavarian Pass cannot be used. You can buy the -day Bavaria Pass at the German part of the Salzburg train station.

For Vienna-Salzburg (or wherever you want to break your journey, like perhaps Hallstatt) try the Austrian railways web site: www.oebb.at - like German sight may have online discounts - but full fare on this route should not be all that expensive and again so many trains don't worry about needing to get a ticket in advance.

Now at times RailEurope can have cheaper tickets for German trains than the normal fares at German stations so check them too: www.raileurope.com - but i'd call the folks at BETS www.budgeteuropetravel.com for any RailEurope product as you can talk to an expert - like Byron IME whether you end up buying a ticket thru them or not and have a manual search done or ask questions, etc. I say check Raileurope just because in a few cases i've seen German full fare tickets cheaper from them but not usually - but you never know. And though there is a Germany-Austria railpass for your plans it is too expensive IMO.

Like they say in German (and i love to say) Have a "Gute Fahrt" - a good journey!

PalenQ

MORE ON RAILPASSES AND OBLIGATORY SUPPLEMENTS...

Again except in a few countries like France and Italy and Spain very few trains require reservations or supplements - and even though i listed such trains for many countries in most cases these trains are yet still rare and the common traveler may never come across them.

Yet sadly for passholders IMO more and more trains are moving to them and thus negating the great aspect of a railpass - just hopping on any ole train anytime without thinking or having to do a reservation.

But, in the U.K., Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Denmark and many other countries there are still very few of those trains.

But in France, Italy and Spain you do need more planning. some special notes on these countries next time.

And as always all Questions are appreciated (and comments or corrections, etc.)

PalenQ

HOW TO MAKE RESERVATIONS IN EUROPE
For trains that require reservations before boarding, even if not full, with a railpass you seem to always have to go to a ticket window and do it - the ubiquitous automatic ticketing machines never IME allow you to make a reservation only using a railpass.

And IME in recent years lines at ticket windows are getting longer - meaning a longer wait. (Duh!) It's not because there are more people buying tickets at ticket windows than ever before - au contraire with online sales and automatic ticketing machines there are many many fewer people queuing to buy train tickets - but voila there are also many less ticket windows in operation as a result.

And i think the railways may want folks to wait in lines for personal service to discourage this labor-intensive process (as opposed to doing it online or in machines) - in some countries you even pay more for tickets from a ticket window.

So to limit waits in line make all your reservations for trains within that country or originating in that country all at once - you can usually do this from any train station in a country.

i.e. you need not be in Berlin to make a train reservation fro a train departing Berlin but can do it in any German train station. And if you end up having to change the reservation later often you can do this free of charge or just be out the reservation fee - usually about $4-6 p.p. with a pass.

MORE ON RESERVATIONS AND THE FRENCH PROBLEM WITH RAILPASSES, ETC

mentorteach

Well then, I have a question for you. We are traveling in France (mostly day trips from Paris) and will also be spending two nights Brugge, Belgium. Which is the best pass for us to purchase? Benelux SaverPass? We only have 9 days, need 1st class seats, and are in our mid-30's, so no student discounts.

PalenQ

Mentor - not easy to tell if the pass is a good deal until you say more about what kind of day trips from Paris you are doing.

If they are like Versailles, Chartres, Giverny or other close in ones probably no.

But if going to the Loire Valley, D-Day beaches, Dijon, Lyon, etc. probably yes - especially in first class as the pass price in first class is really not all that much more than the second class version - a much better deal in first class when compared with normal first class fares.

And especially if you want flexibility on which trains to take - like to Bayeux (D-Day Beaches) you can just hop on many trains - if there are online cheaper fares they will be i think train specific so you have to plan your day trip extremely well so you don't run out of time in your destination or get done early and wanting to return to paris but you must twiddle your thumbs for a few hours waiting for your designated trains.

You can go to www.voyages-sncf.com and get the regular at the station fares for any French train trip in Euros but not i believe for Bruges.

If you know what kind of day trips let me know.

I'll come back later and discuss the Paris to Bruges rail situation as it's kind of complex.

I'll give some more thought to the pass and report back later.

PalenQ

Now about the Paris to Bruges train:

There are two routes:

1- Thalys train to Brussels then local train to Bruges

2- TGV train to Lille then local train to Bruges

Both routes take about 3.5 hrs and require at least one change.

With a pass however you will pay a minimum each way 13 euros supplement in 2nd class and 27 euros in first class (first cl does include a complimentary meal with drink - zilch in 2nd class except a reserved seat) - plus you have to use a day on your railpass. And these passholder fares can be hard to get unless done in advance.

The cheaper way is to take the TGV train Paris-Lille (3 e mandatory reservation fee for pass holders) and then change to the regional train (no reservations even possible) to Bruges. Thus this route is cheaper than the Thalys route with a pass.

and if you do not get PREM fares for the TGV and end up paying full fare (or want flexibility) then the Benelux-France Pass will more come into play.

You can check Thalys fares at www.thalys.com or www.voyages-sncf.com and you will see a Byzantine fare structure - look for the SMILYS fare - the cheapest possible fare for round-trip travel paris to bruges on the Thalys route. But if you do not do a pass i'd still take the Paris-Lille-Bruges route as it should be easier to get an affordable fares.

mentorteach

PalenQ--Finally made some decisions about the daytrips from Paris: Mont St. Michel and Bayeaux will be the Normandy region places we will try to hit, and Versailles will just be for the first half of a day. Still unsure about what other cities we will get to, if any, besides our 2 nights in Brugges. The last post REALLY helps with that part--THANKS!