April

Dan, thanks for your excellent explanation of the confederate flag issue - I had no idea.

For travel destinations and opinions, AJ, your last paragraph sums it up for me.

Maira

Elvira, what is New York doing on your list? Was that a typo? Explain.

Lori

Places I can definitely do without:
Zurich
Tijuana
Brussels
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Los Angeles
Naples (Oh uh, what will I start)

There are some places that you have to be in a certain state of mind to enjoy, such as Las Vegas - which I happen to find very fun, you have to suspend belief and not be so snobby. Also, Orlando - you have to be a kid again and just go with it.

s.fowler

I posted a rather off-hand reply to this question a while back, but with the responses that have occured I would like to attempt a more responsible answer.

Re the Confederate flag. In my view the fact that it is problematical as a state symbol [as not representing all the people], makes it problematic as a decoration. Obviously many groups have symbols that are near and dear, but very few represent the misery and suffering for black human beings that this flag does. There is, in my opinion, no context in which it stands for anything other than racism and oppression.

Having stirred *that* pot. On the main thread. I think, as indicated, our travel yeahs and nays change. The places I stated as being "not of interest" to me are connected to my perception of what I can realistically expect to do. Given resources and commitments elsewhere , Asia, Africa and South America are not on my 'A' list. If you handed me a ticket well perhaps On the other hand Eastern Europe was *not* on my list until we acquired our good friends in Hungary, Czech Rep. and Macedonia. To be honest on the first trip I was scared. After all these were former COMMUNIST countries and, in the case of Macedonia, decidedly "third world." Now we have invitations for Sofia and Istanbul! I guess our recent pattern is to go where we have friends and thus an entree into the local culture!

Vincent

Al, I had always thought you were a wise gentleman, but I was surprised by the discrepancy between the wording of your question "I can do without", and your actual answer to your own question : places that you actually never visited. "Places I could do without" would have been more accurate... and more honest. How can you swear that you wouldn't like such or such country ?
I am lucky enough to travel for my job, but this means I don't always choose the assignments. When they sent me to India or Madagascar, I wasn't really thrilled ; and I would, at that time, never had gone there on my own will. Yet those places are among the most fascinating countries I've ever visited and to which I went back "freely". Same for LA that I discovered thanks to a convention, and that is now my favorite US city : forget about New York, Chicago, San Francisco, too pseudo-European, too sophisticated. LA is the real thing, tacky and excessive, the way Europeans like America ! As of SA, it's not by chance that it's the # 1 growing tourist destination in the world (I know, ignored by Americans, only European and Asian tourists go there) : European diversity and American space all rolled in one, 11 official languages, a country in the making, some of the most beautiful beaches in the world, all that at rock-bottom prices ! Same for Colombia : great colonial cities, great jungle, OK, a few bombs once in a while, but not much more insecurity than DC on the whole...

As for the places I've been and I wouldn't recommend (to put it the PC way) :
- Moscow has got a nice architecture, but is hard to navigate if you don't know the language.
- Mainland China except Xin Jiang : the cultural gap between me and people who don't like ruins but love families seems impossible to bridge...
- Jerusalem : being an atheist, I am not sensitive to the religious remnants, and I don't feel comfortable in an occupied city governed by fanatics. Tel Aviv is interesting and fun, though.
- Oslo : the station, 500 m of pedestrian street, the royal castle, and that's it (and you will have spent $ 100 in the process)
- Pittsburgh, especially on a snowy day in April

elvira

Maira: No, no, NO!! I was a little terse, so the meaning got lost: Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong are big, giant cities just like New York, but I can't read the signs. If I want to go to a big, giant city, I'll go to New York (closer, and I can read the signs!). I personally love the city!

Lydia

Thanx, Sabrina, Jay, Deb, and Vincent - I am a South African, still proud to be one and wouldn't trade my country for any place in the world. Wonder whether Al has visited us, or is he just lending his ears to the media and all those people with hidden agendas who prefer to stress only the negative aspects about this country. I guarantee you, Al - visit Cape Town, the West Coast, travel through the Karoo by car, go to the Drakensberg Mountains, Kruger National Park, Durban and the North Coast, Mpumalanga (Transvaal) - you will change your tune, my friend. South Africa is not just politics, I promise you...!
Lydia

Maira

Elvira, that's better, you got me there for a while...! (Upstate NY in the summer is heavenly).

Vincent, fair point and compelling arguments you made (...except for the L.A. point....that one threw me up for a loop).

Al

Vincent, you are on target: my syntax is not good and my honesty (from time to time) should be challenged.

Some more places I could do without visiting (having been there once...which was one time too many!): Honolulu, Chungking, La Guaira (port city for Caracas), Izmir, Naples, Cagliari, Taranto (no, not Toronto...which is fine), Palermo, Kirkenes, Liverpool, Greenock, Piraeus.

elvira

Vincent: for shame...obviously, the reason you didn't like Pittsburgh is the Penguins weren't in town. Last time I was there, I was in a karate tournement and I got my a*s kicked. Not real fond of the place either...
Upper New York State gets short shrift; there are parts of Ireland, and the Dordogne Valley, that remind me of the Adirondacks and the Mohawk Valley. Too bad everyone thinks of either Buffalo in the winter or Albany at any time when talking about that part of the Empire State.

ilisa

May Buffalo break off and go floating down Niagara Falls forever. Now, that's one place I can do without. Incidentally, my husband is from there, and sharply corrected me when I referred to it as Upstate New York. It's Western New York (as if that makes the city any more appealing).

Linda

Gee, why does everyone hate Las Vegas? It's the only place I know where you can walk down the street and you're in Paris, Venice, New York City,and Egypt all at the same time!!

April

Re: Vegas
Linda,
Because try as it might it really isn't Paris, Venice, New York City or Egypt. I'd much rather go to the real thing with the culture, smells and all. Also, I'm not much of a gambler.

By the way, does anybody know where the term "3rd world" comes from? Why not 2nd world?

judy

I've traveled several times to Mexico, England, France, Austria, and Germany, and I've loved them all. I've always admitted there are other places which are way down on my list of places to go. Until I've seen Italy, Scotland, Ireland, Greece and have returned to western Europe and the British Isles, I'm not going to choose to visit these other places.
By the way, I love going to Las Vegas - but I don't think of it as "traveling" - it's fun, bright, and exciting, and it can be done in a long weekend. I like to go usually once a year. I've spent my life as a Southerner, and I understand the problem with displaying the Confederate flag. I wouldn't think of displaying it, but I honestly think MOST of those who do consider it as "South" against the "North" - a regional issue but not a racial issue. I'm not certain that's much better, but it seems to be a pride issue such as rooting for one football team against another... Just my thoughts - a 50 year-old high school teacher...

Neal Sanders

April, the term "third world" was coined in the 1950s to describe nations that were part of neither the "first world" (North America, western Europe, Japan, Australia and a handful of other industrial democracies aligned with the U.S.) or the "second world" (the USSR and what were then called the 'east bloc,' i.e., the commies). The "third world" was a catch phrase for any under-developed nation. By the 1970s, the term "fourth world" had also entered the lexicon to describe nations that were economic basket cases.

It was an entirely western conceit, as the USSR never thought of itself as "the second world" any more that they would have accepted the idea that the US had "allies" while they had "satellites."

Judy, I am a southerner by birth, with ten generations of southerners preceding me. I have had inculcated into me the history of my family and its proud heritage, including the fact that two of my great-great grandfathers died while fighting for the Confederacy. I still remember my great aunt who had lived through Reconstruction, which she referred to as "the Late Unpleasantness." I cite the preceding in order to establish my bona fides in making the following statement: The confererate flag, a.k.a. the stars and bars, the rebel banner, et. al., ranks right up there with the swastika as an abhorrent symbol. It was created to preserve a way of life that was predicated on the enslavement of one set of human beings by another, and no amount of huffing and puffing about "southern pride" can erase that simple truth. If the people of the southern US want to create a flag that allows them to celebrate their region, let them create one that shows the Smokies, the magnolia, or the well-deserved reputation for friendliness and hospitality. But get rid of an emblem that, 134 years after the end of the Civil War, still says, "white supremacy."

Elsa

I , as a northener, would have agreed with Judy about the confederate issue being regional as opposed to racial. My freshman year of college was spent in Dallas, TX, and as nice as the people were,I felt like a "Yankee". When I arrived on campus, I hadn't given one thought to the South vs. North since I took my last test on that part of history sometime in high school. I am white and Scandinavian looking, so I know it was not a racial issue with me. For whatever reason, I felt the southerners were still fighting the war which had been over for more than 100 yrs. As I said, the people I came in contact with couldn't have been nicer, but I was so surprised that the north vs. south issue was still alive and well in the south. Needless to say, I transfered back to New England to finish up my college years.

Athens is a place I wouldn't return to, but because it's Athens you should see it once.

sarah

WHat the heck is Scandanavian looking?? Asians have a look, Africans have a look.....but SCANDANAVIANS? uhhhh?!

dan woodlief

Couldn't have said it better Neal. Its fine to have regional pride, but base it on the right things. Having lived here most of my life, there are three things that have always bothered me, the whole South vs. North thing (in fact, I have found people in the South somewhat more suspicious of all "foreigners"), the racism that still exists more than anywhere else in the country (of course it is everywhere though in some degree), and the gun culture that is prevalent here. Of course, that is another source of hot debate - it is not popular to attack guns in the South. I have been thinking about posing a question on the U.S. Forum for foreign readers as to how all the shootings in the news have affected the perceptions of the U.S. abroad (heck, maybe they already felt like they were visiting the wild west when coming here, even before the latest rounds). I know, I know, "guns don't kill people, people do." I am sure they could do just as much damage with a pocket knife. Give me a break. I say this, realizing that many in my family and my wife's family have lots of guns and are NRA members. I think the combination of a high-paced high-pressured lifestyle and guns just don't go together. I have been telling my wife that as much as I like the U.S., I am going to pack up and move if all this insanity continues.

To keep this on the subject a little more, don't let the Confederate flag thing keep you from visiting the South. The people here are pretty friendly and there is a lot of natural beauty and history to be experienced. For most, as hard as it is for those who haven't lived here to understand, the Confederate flag is just part of the landscape (on beachtowels, bumperstickers, etc) and not a way of life. That said, I wish it would be relegated to history completely because of what it really does represent.

Vincent

To kill two issues with the same stone, I would use South Africa's example to "solve" the Confederate case. The former South African flag, with its sole references to the white settlers of this country, was obviously a symbol of apartheid and is still so brandished by the nostalgics of that era. This is the reason why the rulers of the "New South Africa", to symbolize change, lauched a competition for a new flag in 1994 (I think, please correct me, Lydia), which came up with this cheerful, nice multicolor flag we now see on SAA's planes and that South Africans of all races are waving at soccer or rugby matches. It doesn't mean that SA has disappeared from the map, on the contrary ; it just emphasizes its diversity. Same thing for the South : as a foreigner, I appreciate the Southerners' kindness, willingness to help, their cooking traditions, their heritage. Why not another flag to symbolize that ? But then of course, the very reference to a time where all those States were united is itself not neutral...

HELEN

I'm a Northerner married to a Southerner and living in the South. And, I would like to see this forum return to the "Places I can do without" topic and not the Confederate flag. Please.......