Irish,

Unfortunately your wise words will be labeled "racist" soon enough.

Spygirl,

I wonder, if these YOUTH( as you scream in your post) were to torch your car or douse gas on you as they light you up as a match, if you would continue being so pious and understanding....

I rather have a "creationist" as a neighbor that one of these "disaffected" YOUTH.

cruiseluv, You are absolutely correct... I expect it. The truth is very hard for some to accept.

to logos:
No one "keeps" a person poor except the person themself. Your "we" does NOT include me or anyone I know or anyone to whom I am related.

I've been watching the developments in Paris carefully, as I'm taking 16 Colorado College students to Paris for 3 weeks just after Thanksgiving. When my daughter and I were in Paris this summer, we got lost in the Banlieux (Clichy). A very disconcerting afternoon, although as an African=American and biracial pair of women, we didn't stand out too much if we kept our voices down. We were amazed that it was much harder to get out of Clichy back to the center of town than to get to it~ it seemed that all the buses ran east-west. I am teaching with a Muslim Sengalese who is a French professor at my college. My perception and experience of France, as the daughter of an African American artist who went to France in the 50s and parents who were Francophiles and frequent visitors to France (and had many black American expatriate friends who married Europeans) is very, very different from that of my Senegalese colleage, who will often speak Enlgish rather than French in France to get better treatment.

The news tonight is not good. Things are getting worse. Do we, in the states have accurate coverage?

tondalaya,
I read various Foreign papers..

I think we can all agree that these so-called youths are disassociated from the culture in which they live. Likewise, that jobless rates in their communities are appalling. And it's pretty much a given that the French, who preen about "tolerance" to the rest of the world, have not shown much of same to their Muslim immigrants.

But. Is that any excuse for such violence? Of couse not. So what is the point of wringing one's hands over their plight? It implies that they are somehow justified because they've been mistreated by "society". Why haven't "Muslim" businesses grown up in these communities, much like the Mexican businesses one sees all over California, Texas, Florida, etc.? Those shops thrive by carving out a clientelle in their own communities. Might France's generous social benefits have something to do with it?

As for blaming "US" for the world's poverty...well, that's absurd. Sadly, the biggest problem is corrupt, oppressive governments whose interests are served by keeping their citizens poor, uneducated, and fed a steady diet of propaganda blaming their plight on "the West".
_______________________________

Perhaps Chirac can get the United Nations to pass a resolution "strongly condemning" the violence. (Just had to get that jab in!).

Hey Jeanne, The UN is a useless organization which should be abolished from NYC and the USA---and the bldg converted to apartments for the rich. Get the US out of the UN!!!!! And shoot the towelhead terrorists in France.

That should start some replies.

Well, I think you may be on to something!

Move the U.N. to Paris and they can hire all the "youths" to do their 10-year studies blaming everything on America!

Yup.. I have been to France 10 times and love the country. However, I do not have a great opinion of French people(except in the countryside vs Paris)-even before this outrage by towelhead Muslims.
Way past time for the French to stop..eliminate...shoot... these terrorists.

The people torching cars and committing other acts of mayhem are angry young males who are losers by nature and are not representative of the general population of immigrants. The majority of immigrants, meaning over 99.99%, do not approve of violence, even though they will readily acknowledge the existence of social problems. The acts of a few hoodlums should not be taken as examples of the immigrant population at large, in thought or in action.

These same hoodlums come out of the woodwork whenever there is <i>any</i> excuse to cause trouble. They are doing it now because they know that as long as their activities are widespread, they are far less likely to be caught individually and punished.

The government is &ldquo;dithering&rdquo; because, no matter what they do, they will be criticized. It would be easy to stop the vandalism by simply shooting those engaging in it, but the government would be criticized for that. If the government does nothing, it will be criticized for that, too. In fact, any action it takes that might prove <i>effective</i> is likely to be criticized as too violent, whereas any action it takes that is <i>ineffective</i> is likely to be criticized precisely because it has no effect.

So what would you do?

Having talks and enacting new social policies won't make any difference, because the people committing these acts are already losers who are well outside the limits of normal society (many of them will spend a lifetime tangling with police). There are certainly those who might benefit from changes, but they aren't the ones torching the cars to begin with.

to put this in perspective...the vast majority of people commenting here on this issue have absolutely no knowledge of the north african muslim community in france. this is just a rehashing of the &quot;clash of civilisations&quot; literature that became popular after 9-11.

Rufus' opinions seem to have a lot of support but frankly, i don't think there is enough knowledge of the issue to espouse these theories of how the rioting in france is related to government, cultural, economic policies of countries thousands of miles away from france. Nor is there enough insight to link this to deep rifts in philosophy between east and west or muslim and christian.

despite living and working in paris part time for many years and having many friends and co-workers who are french north africans, i don't claim to know enough about this community to formulate these sort of grandiose theories that try to explain this unrest with religion, international economics, the place of women in various countries, social structures in african and middle eastern countries,etc.

to me, this is an issue of french citizens and residents rioting out of frustration for various problems within their community in france...not disimilar to the LA riots.

&gt;to logos:
No one &quot;keeps&quot; a person poor except the person themself.

Your and my tax money is used to subsidise the production or food. Production and export are promoted with large sums of money. If you had a farm in a poor country , you'll see that whatever you produce, you cannot sell it , because all the imported products are already on the local market for less than it would cost you to produce them locally. Furtermore the seed itself is &quot;copyrighted&quot;. Many (most) local governments are corrupt. But if they should ever refuse to accept this dumping, they are labelled as criminals who oppose free trade. Sorry, I didn't meant to get political, but I felt this had to be said. We shouldn't approach all this to naively, we are all part of the story.

The rioting is an organized effort by Islamo fascists that has reached Place de la Republique and city hall. I would be concerned that martial law will be declared soon, if the religious fanatics don't see it as in their interest to stop. Not a good time to go to Paris.

Hi walkinaround,

You are a voice of reason in a sea of blather.

Every American I have talked to about the riots in France is unaware it's even happening. Or they might have heard 'something about that' and thats it.
Couple things - in mid october or so, the Algerian 'group for preaching and combat' (a salafist islamic fascist outfit) declared France enemy number one and called for jihad against the whole of France. Looks like the call is being taken seriously.
The 'hardline guy' is Nikolas Sarkozy, the interior minister, who was immediately condemned for calling the rioters 'thugs' and 'scum'. The government doesnt know what to do because it is incompetent, period. They cant find a way to blame this on Uncle Sam, so they are paralyzed.
I do enjoy the posts here saying 'nothing to worry about, won't affect tourism'. Keep that head in the sand.
And contrast the comments coming from the White House concerning this (deplore the violence, but this is an internal French matter) with the attitude the French govt and press during the 92 LA riots. The French lectured us endlessly and in great detail about how this could never happen to their superior society.
What we are witnessing is the beginning of the Eurabian Intefada and it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.

walkinaround: Well said!

I just opened my local Sunday paper. There is no story in the paper about what is happening in France.
I guess ignorance is bliss.

walkinaround:

I agree with you that the rioters represent a tiny fraction of their community and that we have no way of knowing the indignities they may have suffered. But the violence is inexcusable, whatever the cause.

As for &quot;rifts in philosophy&quot;, I just want to clarify that I didn't attribute it to &quot;east and west or muslim and christian&quot;. I was addressing the conflicting philosophies embraced by the French government and &quot;the French&quot; themselves. (I <i>know</i> many of the rioters are French-born. When I say &quot;the French&quot; I'm referring to those Frenchmen who embrace the French culture. I'm not excluding the immigrants, I just can't think of another way to distinguish between them.)

The French adopted multi-culturalism and tolerance as official state policy...to the point of lecturing others from an attitude of superiority.

At the same time they fiercely defend their own lovely culture, which they consider superior to all others. It's reflected here on Fodor's in the sensitivity of many travellers who,aware of this French pride, seek advice on how to avoid offending them. If travellers are so aware of a---shall we say---French condescension toward Americans, just imagine what it must be like for an African Muslin living among them.

THAT was the conflict of philosophies I referred to: the one in the French mind. Multi-culturalism vs. French cultural superiority. And I say this sympathetically. Which do they give up? Their pride is well justified: beautiful cities; idyllic countryside; colorful history; excellent wines, food, art; a gentle culture; and a &quot;well ordered&quot; society. I could go on and on.

But a country fiercely defending its culture is not a country opening its arms to those who are different. It's a true catch 22 within the French mind. And I don't know how they will resolve it. As I said before, God bless France.