cafegoddess

So jealous of you Stu, have a great trip!

Trophywife007

Bon Voyage, Stu.

OReilly

I am keeping up to date with this issue, as I WAS considering a rental in Paris for a couple of weeks late this year/early 2018. I would want to do it legally.

I have not rented an apartment in Paris, although have done so in the past in rural France, several times.

Are there a series of questions one can ask the owner that would would help to assess if they are offering a legal rental. For example:

I am aware that there have been changes regarding the legality of the short-term rental situation in Paris. Can you please respond to the following to put my mind at ease?:
- Is your rental legal, under new conditions institute by Paris on DATE?
- Do you own the apartment or are you renting it?
- Do you pay tax on your rental revenue?
- Are you a full-time resident in your apartment and are you renting it out less than 120 days per year?
- Is your apartment part of a Cooperative? If so, does your cooperative agreement allow you to rent your apartment on a short-term basis?


Of course, they could lie! However, I assume if a renter asks difficult questions, an illegal might just back out before renting because they have a semi-informed consumer.


Thoughts?

regards .. Ger

scrb11

So I believe Reason is a libertarian source. But they report that hotels are encouraging neighbors to report Airbnb rentals to the police.

Even though Airbnb is illegal in NYC, there were more Airbnb rentals for the last New Years than previous New Years Eve period.

The hotel association has paid nonprofits, tenant associations and even actors to lobby against the supposed dangers of Airbnb.

"ShareBetter, a nonprofit funded by the Hotel Trades Council and the American Hotel and Lodging Association, has created a hotline to allow New Yorkers to report illegal home-sharing to the proper authorities.

Reporting dangerous and threatening behavior to the police is one thing—and if you don't want to go directly to the cops, Airbnb already offers a hotline for complaints about bad hosts and guests. But this is one of those situations where illegal isn't exactly the same as dangerous. What threat does ShareBetter think New Yorkers need to "protect" their neighborhoods against? Visitors who want to shop in local stores, eat at local restaurants, and otherwise help locals make money? Sounds awful.

At least this effort to undermine Airbnb is direct and honest. Last month ShareBetter got caught running ads in D.C. featuring a woman who claimed to have watched tourists using Airbnb ruin her Washington neighborhood. The woman turned out to be an actress from New York City.

All this is part of a national effort. Last year the American Hotel and Lodging Association outlined plans to "actively coordinate with state and local hotel associations, along with affordable housing, neighborhood and tenant groups, consumer groups, labor, and others" to create a narrative that roomsharing is wrecking neighborhoods and hurting average Americans. In reality, the growth of services like Airbnb has helped people make extra money from unused space in their homes and lowered hotel prices during peak times like New Years' Eve, the Super Bowl, and other major events.

Hotels have controlled the hospitality sector of the economy for decades, with little external competition. Like taxi companies facing upstart ridesharing services, they're now calling for special favors from the government instead of honestly competing in the market. Banning the competition might be the only way that terrible hotels (like New York's Hotel Carter, rated the dirtiest hotel in America on Trip Advisor) can survive in a bigger marketplace with more consumer options. But more choices and more freedom are better for just about everyone else—and narcing on your neighbors isn't very nice."

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/15/ho...narc-on-their?

It makes you wonder if some of the posters on forums like this one railing against "illegal" vacation apartments are being paid by hotel industry groups.

They certainly have a lot of passion about the subject. Too much to be an unpaid advocate for the hotel industry.

thursdaysd

So who is paying you? AirBnB, perhaps?

And it is entirely reasonable for people not to want strangers parading through their apartment buildings or neighborhoods.

Envierges

And it is entirely reasonable for people not to want a supply of strangers having access to their building entry codes.

And it is entirely reasonable for people not to want to pay the increases in their condo assessments caused by the damage done by renters who have no interest in or commitment to the property.

And it is entirely reasonable for people to be upset by the violation of their condo bylaws.

scrb11

Some of it is probably envy that they can't rent out their apts. for the cash flow.

But the way some of the people attack anyone asking about apartments is not anything "entirely reasonable."

Sarastro

I agree scrb11. I think that you are on to something here. How does one apply for money from the Hotel Trades Council?

fuzzbucket

It is illegal now for residents of a building to report illegal rentals in their buildings. The direction of the building must appoint someone to observe traffic in the suspected apartments and document it. Then the direction of the building must make an appearance at the Mayor's Office. There are no more "nazi tactics" involved.

There are "serruriers" who will make entry badges for any residential apartment building. The keys with magnets embedded in them are not able to be copied.

The US regulations obviously do not apply to Paris.

The citzen link supplied by poster 1994 does not supply calendars.
I'd be suspicious about any website that does not give calendars, except for Adagio and Citadines.

fuzzbucket

O'Reilly - the owner or management company would probably not answer your questions, because they would consider them to be too bothersome. They might not reply at all to your request, because they would think it too invasive.

1994

Thanks fuzzbucket for the reply. I had given up on getting the answer. Someone further back (maybe on this or a different thread) had posted the link stating it was a link to legal aparthotels in France. I had serious doubts that all the listings on the site were legal. Based on the descriptions, locations and ways to book, many looked far from legal. But, they all seemed to 'imply' legality.

Makes it very hard to determine truth.

fuzzbucket

Adagio and Citadines are always legal - so you can't go wrong, there.

kerouac

Here is the aparthotel link that I have given in the past, but I really don't have any idea if all of these places are legal: https://s19.postimg.org/infa2l4lv/pourpre.jpg

In any case, there are more and more aparthotels being built in Paris. Two that I have seen recently and which look very nice are Résidhome Rosa Parks ( http://www.residhome.com/residence-h...paris-289.html ) and Hipark Suites at Porte de Pantin ( http://www.hipark.fr/paris/ ).

kerouac

Here is the correct link for the hopefully legal aparthotels in Paris: https://www.cityzenbooking.com/fr/r-...FQX3wgodZaUP-Q

rs899

We just got back from an airbnb rental in Pantin.

My take on this is that I am no expert on French law. If my landlord tells me he's legal, who am I to disagree?

That said, I backed up the rental with a cancellable hotel in case he got the jitters at the last minute.

1994

Yes, Kerouac, that is the link I was looking at before. It says there are 224 Appart Hotels in Paris. I was not aware of 224 legal aparthotels in Paris. I am aware of the half dozen or so ones that have been recommended over the years, but 224?

Many of the listings are single units in buildings - not actual multiple units as you would expect to see in a legal apart hotel. Seemed odd to me.

Of course, I also see the many legal Citidines, Adagio, ResidHome buildings that I knew were legal.

fuzzbucket

Most of the illegal vacation rentals have migrated to the legal apart'hotel websites because they have gotten smart - and think that clients won't know the difference.

If you stick to the chains, you'll be fine.

JeanneB

Who are these posters who are so concerned about apartment legality....and WHY are they so concerned? No inquiry about apartments is allowed to run without constant badgering from the same people. People on these boards have been renting apartments for years and years. But now that's not tolerated without a LOT of lectures (the same lectures over and over and over).

Do the posters own apartments and don't want the competition? Are they protecting hotels for some reason? I just don't get it. Why is this SUCH a big deal if taxes are being collected?????

(This is not personal. I've enjoyed and appreciated keourac's helpful posts since I joined in 2001. I just want someone to explain why this is such a big deal.)

janisj

>>Who are these posters who are so concerned about apartment legality....and WHY are they so concerned? No inquiry about apartments is allowed to run without constant badgering from the same people. People on these boards have been renting apartments for years and years.<<

You apparently haven't paid <i>that</i> much attention. I personally have rented Parisian apartments many times starting back in the mid-late 90's. I <B>LOVED</B> renting flats. But times have changed and now there are mostly illegal (they may have been even back then but if so, I wasn't aware of it). Many of those warning against renting have also rented holiday apartments in the past.

That is sad/unfortunate but it is a fact. IMO when 'stuff' changes we need to adapt. So I for one will follow the rules and if I 'must' rent an apartment, I'll make darn sure it is a legal one.

I would think that is a better advice than "Oh - go ahead and rent an illegal apartment - it is only illegal for the owner - not you"

rs899

"That is sad/unfortunate but it is a fact. IMO when 'stuff' changes we need to adapt. So I for one will follow the rules and if I 'must' rent an apartment, I'll make darn sure it is a legal one."

I respectfully disagree. Unless and until the authorities make it clear to casual visitors that there are specific consequences to the visitor (such as fines, denied housing or jail) I see no reason to become an expert in French law.

It is the host's responsibility to comply with local law.
If he/she says it it legal, am I supposed to spend my time and due diligence to prove/disprove that? Is what is banned in Paris legal in Pantin? I do ask the basic question "are you legal?' but going beyond that is, IMO kind of pointless.

If the Paris Convention Bureau wants to put up a warning or a checker on its website, then I will pay attention. I suspect they will never do that.