susieq

Well, this is my first time posting a message on Fodors so bear with me. I have learned so much from reading travel talk posted by others. We just returned from a wonderful trip to Paris and wanted to alert other travelers about our experience with the Paris metro police. We were in Paris for 9 days so decided to purchase the one week metro pass (Carte Orange weekly pass). We asked a metro agent for assistance and after several attempts at using the automatic machines, finally got passes for all 4 of us. However, the metro agent did not give us the carte orange card that you are supposed to receive when you purchase the weekly pass. Toward the end of the week, the metro police were doing a random check in one of the metro corridors of all tickets. When we showed our passes, we were told that we must also have the orange card and that we had to pay a 35 euro fine each since we didn't have it. We explained that a metro agent had assisted us when we got our passes, but the metro policeman couldn't have cared less and was in fact quite threatening that we must pay or else the fine would double and he would take our passport information, etc. etc. Quite reluctantly, we paid him 35 euro each, or a total of 140 euro. Quite an expensive lesson, especially since we had paid for our passes and had not been informed of the necessity of having the carte orange card as well. I had read postings about the card, but that if we did not have it, the Paris metro police did not hassle tourists over it. That was not the case with our lovely metro policeman. In any event, I was very upset by the experience as it clearly appeared to be a money making activity targeted at tourists. Not very friendly...however, this has not clouded our view of Paris and France in general as everything else was truly wonderful and the people there are grand and very helpful. Well, I decided to pursue getting our fine money back since it was 140 euro, so we went to the tourist office at the Louvre, who sent us to the Chatelet station metro office, who didn't speak english, and sent us to another information booth at Chatelet, who sent us to an office to make a report...who gave us the address of the place where we would get a refund of the fines we paid. However, the address was not exactly correct (one number off on the street number...taking us to a residence rather than an office). We finally got the correct address and got our refunds. It was quite apparent that this was a common activity as they didn't give us any problem getting our money back...although it sure did appear to be a game of "lets see how long before the tourist tires of this and gives up on getting any money back"...the giving of the wrong address on a preprinted slip...humm ... sounds suspicious. In any event, after going thru the process, we did get results and went on our way...with the clear message that we must also get a photo taken and attach it to the carte orange card. We did so...and are now official and legal. So, for all you future travelers to Paris who are there long enough to take advantage of using a weekly pass (good from a Monday thru Sunday period), be sure to get the carte orange card as well and either bring a small photo with you to attach or use one of the photo booths in the metro stations (we found one at the Courcelles station that worked - cost 4 euro to get a photo). Now this is just an adventure to add to our travel journey tales, and in no way did we let it spoil an otherwise fantastic trip with great Parisans.

Dave_in_Paris

The caution about getting the card when you buy the pass is a good one, but the fault was entirely with the window agent. The Metro "police" agent was just enforcing the law.

norween

I suppose that the agent selling the pass just didn't understand that it was your first pCrchase : generally people buy a weekly Varte Orage ticket each week and have the ID part (remember : you were buying a local worker's transport pass !).

Dukey

I do not understand why you see this as being "hassled" and that somehow you might have been singled out.

I'd say you were fortunate that you could get the money back at all given your own admission that you weren't complying with the rules.

Why the Metro would levy and fine and then give it back is the thing that mystifies me.

walkinaround

>>>>>
Why the Metro would levy and fine and then give it back is the thing that mystifies me.
>>>>>

because the police were just enforcing the law blindly. in the overall view of things, it makes no sense to hit up tourists with fines like this. finally, the OP got to someone who was able to look at it with common sense rather than just enforcing the law without thinking.

although this might make no sense to someone looking at it from their own perspective, there is a very basic reason why this happened (and probably happens many times each day):

french working culture is characterised by a large 'power distance' and little empowerment of the employee. people's jobs are narrowly scoped and straying from your strict job specification is generally not done.

as compared with a country like denmark, where the police would be more inclined to make these decisions themselves rather than to have the problem go through the proper channels until the person tasked with handling customer fine complaints is found.

just a cultural difference that is easily understood if you have any experience working with or for a french (or other latin) organisation or if you have any understanding of cross-cultural business practices.

MorganB

---- it clearly appeared to be a money making activity targeted at tourists----

I am appaled at that statement. It is clearly NOT aimed at tourists. The law is for everyone. I take the metro daily and have had my tickets controled many times. This is not some plan by the RATP to not give the card to tourists and hit them with a fine. Information on how the cards work is posted everywhere. You are the one that requested it and you are the one that should have gotten the card.

----I had read postings about the card, but that if we did not have it, the Paris metro police did not hassle tourists over it----

So you knew about the card and decided to skip it. Then blamed the ticket agent that sold them to you? They dont give out a card every time a Carte Orange is sold. You use your card over and over again so it is up to you to alert the agent to the need for a card. Perhaps the agent could have guessed that you need one but it is certainly not in their instruction manual to hide them from tourists nor are they obligated to give you more than you ask for!

In american culture you ask a question and you get an answer that not only replies to your question but covers any territory around that question that might be useful. In French culture they answer the question but typically do not add more information.

----although it sure did appear to be a game of "lets see how long before the tourist tires of this and gives up on getting any money back"...the giving of the wrong address on a preprinted slip...humm ... sounds suspicious----

They tend to give the main address for the building and then let you figure out where you need to go in. I have experienced this many times when doing French administrative paperwork. For example the Prefecture de Police is so large it had 4 streets around it. They give you the main address which is not the door you need to go into. You just ask upon arrival and can find it. Again, not some sort of ruse to get tourists not to ask for their money back.

walkinaround: --- in the overall view of things, it makes no sense to hit up tourists with fines like this. ---

I am sorry but tourists are not above the law. Yes the agent could have "gone easy" on the tourists but part of the process of the Carte Orange is to have the card. It is well documented in guide books and on travel forums. Even the OP knew of the need for the card.

Gretchen

The Metro police take their jobs VERY seriously!! Without a photo and a number of your cover on the ticket, you are breaking the law. A family, for instance, could pass the ticket around without the cover.
But having the cover is also VERY useful--you just hold it up when getting on the bus, since you do not put your ticket in the machine for buses.
I don't quite understand why the OP, if having read about the CO, didn't arrive with her picture ready to put in the cover. Showing the clerk a picture would have alerted him to her need for the cover.

kerouac

I don't think I would have been as nice as the RATP -- the fines were justified. A Carte Orange is obviously a card, not the coupon that goes with it.

Anyway, this will all be eliminated soon, as the Carte Orange is being phased out for the NaviGo pass -- and I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible.

Kate_W

I agree with the second half of Dave-in-Paris' comment (not the fault of the Metro police) but not the first part. In my view, it is not the fault of the ticket agent that you didn't get the ID card. It's your fault for not ensuring that you knew what you were doing. As others have mentioned, guidebooks and signs explain the need for two bits of paper for a Carte Orange to be valid (the base card with ID photo, plus the weekly ticket).

Mr_Dreamer

WOW it's a good thing I read this posting or we may have did the same thing? So we'll need the base card+ the ticket and a photo, can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? We got 4 photos each from walgreens but only used two for our passports, Thnaks.

Dave_in_Paris

Granted we're in the "speculation zone," but if the OP asked for a carte orange, that's what should have dispensed - along with the coupon. Could have been a misunderstanding, easy enough when the native language isn't shared. But it could also have been a ticket agent watching the line form ever longer behind the OP and family, and taking the quick way out.

superheterodyne

>> and I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible. <<

There are talks about implementing a non-resident Navigo pass, which would cost 5 or 7 euros, but indeed it's not very clear.

Dave_in_Paris

By the way, Walkinaround, the French police do use discretion in applying the law. In a long time here, we seen it ourselves, up close. And heard about it many times, particularly when tourists are involved. And so do the Metro rule enforcers use discretion, most recently, to my knowledge, with weeklong visitors we had, last month. I think it has a lot more to do with the "quality" of the interaction than with any cultural difference. I cringe at any explanation of national behavior. We been here since 1986 and we're highly confident that we still understand very little about the French. How could it be otherwise?

superheterodyne

>> can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? <<

Yes, you can. Don't forget also to write down the number of your Carte Orange card on the ticket.

Have a good trip !

walkinaround

dave, i never said that french police would never use discretion when assessing fines. i was just explaining from a cultural perspective why something that seems to make no sense (why levy a fine and just refund it later?) could happen with such apparent regularity. and how there would be less tendency to use discretion as compared to other working cultures.

as for cringing at any explanation of national behaviour, i do tend to agree in principle. however, international companies and organisations need a framework in which to assess workplace cultures. there have been far too many documented failures because of cultural differences that go unrecognised in the workplace...the deadly assumption that what one culture accepts or favours will work everywhere. corporate mergers sometimes result in anglo-american or scandinavian style employee empowerment programmes being introduced in european latin countries...usually with dismal failure because employees and managers are equally uncomfortable with it.

agree or disagree with it, this idea is basic and well documented both in practical and theoritical cultural studies. like it or not, there are deep cultural reasons why french employees will be less flexible and more bureaucratic when faced with situations such as the one described by the OP.

Dave_in_Paris

I don't disagree in principle. There are cultural-societal differences, however dimly I may perceive them and the research-based point sounds reasonable, at least. But culture is sort of like a closet full of clothes we wear. If I were to venture into someone else's wardrobe, I'd be a little disoriented, and cautious about judgements. Traveling between cultures works the same way, I think. We don't profoundly share the same language - or political, social or economic history. Cross-cultural academic research is notoriously tricky and open to question. Maybe I'm taking the easy way out - imagining that what happens in the Metro on Tuesday morning may have as much or more to do with what sort of a night before the patroling agent had. Or how polite, or contrite, the "offender" may be.

kerouac

Is this the part where I confess that I was fined on the London Underground out of pure stupidity, wrote a letter to complain anyway and was promptly refunded?

Trudaine

Kerouac :

"I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible".

Without being absolutely positive about this, I would add that it can be understandable that non residents are excluded from the Carte orange.

Public transport is heavily subsidised, and so is the Carte orange and so will be its successors (including through employers contributions), through local and national taxes (even if the Ile-de-France regional mass transit has recently become a competence of the regional government). As a result, the traveller pays somewhat less than the (marginal) cost of his/trip. Arguably, tourists bring money to the local economy, but so do the tax paying residents as well...

However, even from a mere environmental point of view, there should be incentives for visitors to use public transport, but under specific schemes...

Travelnut

<i>Author: Mr_Dreamer
Date: 12/12/2006, 06:39 am
WOW it's a good thing I read this posting or we may have did the same thing? So we'll need the base card+ the ticket and a photo, can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? We got 4 photos each from walgreens but only used two for our passports, Thnaks.</i>

I would save the passport photos for future use, in the event your passport is lost or stolen - will reduce the amount of time you spend getting it replaced.

The C.O. photo space is much smaller - you only need a head shot about 1&quot; square. You can cut one out of an old photo or use your own digital camera... it just needs to look like you.

hopscotch

MorganB writes
&quot; In american culture you ask a question and you get an answer that not only replies to your question but covers any territory around that question that might be useful. In French culture they answer the question but typically do not add more information.&quot;

So true, but not only in France. This is habit throughout Europe, particularly with public workers.