Oui (wee) or Oui (way)? Can someone explain?
Dec 9th, 2004 | 11:27 AM
#21
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Another factoid, within Quebec itself, you can (generalization) tell a person native to Quebec City vs Montreal...Quebec City have a much more pronounced and proper french (perhaps because capital city) versus Montreal....I've experienced that a few times...nothing is homogenous I guess...
Dec 9th, 2004 | 11:42 AM
#23
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Rex, I think that was either a speech defect or else you heard someone starting a sentence with what formally would be "oui, je....." Kids would most likely begin such a sentence with what sounds like "ouaijh" or "ouiash."
Dec 9th, 2004 | 11:51 AM
#25
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There's a French woman on another forum who often write "ouah" in informal messages. It doesn't seem to mean much if anything, except maybe "ooh." http://forums.delphiforums.com/PBPro...ges?msg=4102.5
Dec 9th, 2004 | 12:07 PM
#26
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"Oui" pronounced "oué" or "ouais" is a usage of very long standing in Québec, in the argot known as "joual" Many of the characteristics of Québecois French date from before the conquest in 1759, it is likely that this pronunciation is either very old, or regional (normand, breton), or both. I doubt, however, that the trendy Parisians using this pronunciation would very likely be imitating their Canadian cousins, whom they still consider to be country bumpkins.
In a similar vein,in joual "moi" becomes "moé" or"mwé", "toi", "toé" etc. In fact I read some time ago that Louis XIV probably pronounced his famous epigram as "L'état, c'est moé, car je suis le roé".
In a similar vein,in joual "moi" becomes "moé" or"mwé", "toi", "toé" etc. In fact I read some time ago that Louis XIV probably pronounced his famous epigram as "L'état, c'est moé, car je suis le roé".
Dec 9th, 2004 | 12:34 PM
#27
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Just to muddy the waters even more, I sometimes hear characters in French films prounounce it as "wih"; or that's how it sounds to my tin ear. Very clipped.
Of course, except for very basic survival/tourist French, I don't know the language, and can understand more of the printed word than the spoken, but that's how it sounds to me: "Wih!". Does anyone else sometimes hear it that wee, umm, way?
Of course, except for very basic survival/tourist French, I don't know the language, and can understand more of the printed word than the spoken, but that's how it sounds to me: "Wih!". Does anyone else sometimes hear it that wee, umm, way?
Dec 9th, 2004 | 01:27 PM
#28
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Two possibilities.
I get the impression, but am ready to be corrected, that a very thin-lipped and slightly-aspirated 'oui' (which is what I think Robdaddy means by 'wih') carries an extra layer of meaning - maybe 'Yes, all right then, you got me' or 'Yes, if you must know' or 'Yes but it's none of your damn business'...
But also, I was taught to clip closing vowels rather as this is clipped, rather than drawing it out, and it might also be a slight marker of a more upper crust mode of speech.
As others have said, Rex's experience might be of 'verlan' (= l'envers reversed), in which syllables are in reverse order, thus you will hear (or even see written) 'keum'='mec' - a slang word for man/guy/fella.
I get the impression, but am ready to be corrected, that a very thin-lipped and slightly-aspirated 'oui' (which is what I think Robdaddy means by 'wih') carries an extra layer of meaning - maybe 'Yes, all right then, you got me' or 'Yes, if you must know' or 'Yes but it's none of your damn business'...
But also, I was taught to clip closing vowels rather as this is clipped, rather than drawing it out, and it might also be a slight marker of a more upper crust mode of speech.
As others have said, Rex's experience might be of 'verlan' (= l'envers reversed), in which syllables are in reverse order, thus you will hear (or even see written) 'keum'='mec' - a slang word for man/guy/fella.
Dec 9th, 2004 | 03:15 PM
#30
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Rex, that thing you heard in Bretagne was a "glottal stop". It will only happen when 'oui' is the very first word in an utterance. It is represented in phonetic transcription by a "?".
The glottal stop (the glottis flaps a bit) is de rigueur in German where it is absolutely wrong to run words together (= "liaison"
as we do in English, and as is also done in French. An example:
In German they say "das ?Auto" i.e do not run the '-s' of 'das' into the 'au' of 'Auto'.
But in English we say "thi - sapple", and in French one says "me - zamis".
This is the most distinctive feature of spoken German, and you can pick German speech at fifty paces from the succession of little clicks you can hear.
Harzer
The glottal stop (the glottis flaps a bit) is de rigueur in German where it is absolutely wrong to run words together (= "liaison"
as we do in English, and as is also done in French. An example:In German they say "das ?Auto" i.e do not run the '-s' of 'das' into the 'au' of 'Auto'.
But in English we say "thi - sapple", and in French one says "me - zamis".
This is the most distinctive feature of spoken German, and you can pick German speech at fifty paces from the succession of little clicks you can hear.
Harzer
Dec 9th, 2004 | 03:18 PM
#31
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My French (soon to be) in-laws will, as a family pronounce oui in a huge variety of ways. The family range in age from 20 to 50 and will utilise the whole gamut from "wih" to "way" takin "ouish" "wee" en route.
In my experience "wih" is often used on the telephone or in short snappy conversations (in a shop or with a policeman for instance) and imparts a business-like efficient (though not brusque) tone to the conversation. "Ouish" on the other hand is, as you might surmise, the exact opposite of this, rather langorous and encompassing a certain fatality or, also, unfulfilled desire (as one might speak about a lottery win for instance!).
To go back to the OP "way" is often more likelely to be "oh-way" with a (near)silent aspirated draw in of breath to precede the "way" part. It's common in the deep south and the Rhone and has become fashionable amongst the young, "chattering" classes in Paris.
BTW my in-laws are from the deep deep south in Perpignan and will also use "oc" pronounced "oke" (like "oak" but with a more closed mouth I suppose).
And as for QUAI - well it's certainly pronounced "key" in English and is pronounced "kay" in French as in "Quai d'Orsay" - just be aware that those two words don't quite sound the same; the y in Orsay has a longer finish than Quai.
Dr D.
(Who had this response checked and re-checked over by Mlle DoGood prior to hitting "POST"!)
In my experience "wih" is often used on the telephone or in short snappy conversations (in a shop or with a policeman for instance) and imparts a business-like efficient (though not brusque) tone to the conversation. "Ouish" on the other hand is, as you might surmise, the exact opposite of this, rather langorous and encompassing a certain fatality or, also, unfulfilled desire (as one might speak about a lottery win for instance!).
To go back to the OP "way" is often more likelely to be "oh-way" with a (near)silent aspirated draw in of breath to precede the "way" part. It's common in the deep south and the Rhone and has become fashionable amongst the young, "chattering" classes in Paris.
BTW my in-laws are from the deep deep south in Perpignan and will also use "oc" pronounced "oke" (like "oak" but with a more closed mouth I suppose).
And as for QUAI - well it's certainly pronounced "key" in English and is pronounced "kay" in French as in "Quai d'Orsay" - just be aware that those two words don't quite sound the same; the y in Orsay has a longer finish than Quai.
Dr D.
(Who had this response checked and re-checked over by Mlle DoGood prior to hitting "POST"!)
Dec 9th, 2004 | 04:39 PM
#34
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Si! Yeh i've noticed this as well as surmised it's like caio (sp ?Italian 'chow'), used by many young French and other Europeans it seems so i thought si might similarly be taken from Spanish and has nothing to do with the French si (if). This may just be jumping to conclusions through an insufficent knowledge of French. Interesting how other language words gain currency - like in UK on a train you go to the 'buffet' for snacks but on French trains you go to 'le snack-bar." Avez un bon 'week-end'!
Dec 9th, 2004 | 04:39 PM
#35
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Man, I have found Paradise -- French Lexicography!
Long discussion with my French teacher this morning about certain French usages versus the Quebec equivalents.
For savants, and with apologies for offending any sensitive readers, we discussed the various uses of "con"; distinctions between "con" (fr.) and "cave"(Qu.); niais (Fr.) versus niaiseux (QU. by way of our own troll praline) etc.
Basically: How to be really demeaning in high style.
So I'm pumped for this discussion.
For example: A poster raised the use of "si" in French.
It is NOT used in Quebec -- a colleague told me she thought I was trying to speak Spanish when I used it.
It means NO as an affirmation I.E. YES as a contradiction.
Confused?
It means: "On the contrary yes I do" or "on the contrary yes it is" or whatever.
"Tu ne viens pas ce soir?" "Si, je viens!"
"You're not coming tonight?" "Yes, but I am!"
On ouais, which is the conventional way of rendering the slangy "Yeah": I disagree with some posters. It's not particularly Quebec-specific, unlike toe', moe' etc. And educated people can say ouais, whereas they cannot get away with those (literally) unspeakable pronouns.
Long discussion with my French teacher this morning about certain French usages versus the Quebec equivalents.
For savants, and with apologies for offending any sensitive readers, we discussed the various uses of "con"; distinctions between "con" (fr.) and "cave"(Qu.); niais (Fr.) versus niaiseux (QU. by way of our own troll praline) etc.
Basically: How to be really demeaning in high style.
So I'm pumped for this discussion.
For example: A poster raised the use of "si" in French.
It is NOT used in Quebec -- a colleague told me she thought I was trying to speak Spanish when I used it.
It means NO as an affirmation I.E. YES as a contradiction.
Confused?
It means: "On the contrary yes I do" or "on the contrary yes it is" or whatever.
"Tu ne viens pas ce soir?" "Si, je viens!"
"You're not coming tonight?" "Yes, but I am!"
On ouais, which is the conventional way of rendering the slangy "Yeah": I disagree with some posters. It's not particularly Quebec-specific, unlike toe', moe' etc. And educated people can say ouais, whereas they cannot get away with those (literally) unspeakable pronouns.
Dec 9th, 2004 | 05:41 PM
#36
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I used "ouay" once in a restaurant in Paris and the appalled server whispered to me, "Pas 'ouay'! Jamais! C'est vulgaire." In other words, that pronunciation is considered common, as is "pee" for "puis".
When French people say "ciao" they spell it differently--"tciao".
Dec 9th, 2004 | 06:33 PM
#37
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Fascinating thread. Beats politics and trolls any day of the week. PalQ mentioned earlier how some English words have crept into the French vocabulary. Judging from the instructions in my Renault in Provence in May, I concluded that the French word for "airbag" is "airbag." Is anyone aware of a different term that is in use in France (or Quebec)?
I've also found it interesting how my anglo colleagues in Ottawa pick up and use French words in a seemingly unconscious manner. Three words stand out: someone will say "I will be attending a reunion this afternoon," pronouncing the word reunion in English but all the while meaning that they will be attending a meeting; or, "We know what the syndicate will have to say about that," again pronouncing the word as we would in English, even though they are using the French word for union; and finally, in a non-work environment, "We stopped off at a dépaneur to pick up a bottle of wine." In this case, dépaneur is pronounced as a French word and is being used to describe a convenience or corner store. (By the way, if you're ever in Quebec, don't be too tempted by the wine selection in a corner store. While convenient, it's underwhelming.)
I will confess to using dépaneur here in Nova Scotia, which usually draws a funny look. Language and pronunciation are such curious things.
Anselm
I've also found it interesting how my anglo colleagues in Ottawa pick up and use French words in a seemingly unconscious manner. Three words stand out: someone will say "I will be attending a reunion this afternoon," pronouncing the word reunion in English but all the while meaning that they will be attending a meeting; or, "We know what the syndicate will have to say about that," again pronouncing the word as we would in English, even though they are using the French word for union; and finally, in a non-work environment, "We stopped off at a dépaneur to pick up a bottle of wine." In this case, dépaneur is pronounced as a French word and is being used to describe a convenience or corner store. (By the way, if you're ever in Quebec, don't be too tempted by the wine selection in a corner store. While convenient, it's underwhelming.)
I will confess to using dépaneur here in Nova Scotia, which usually draws a funny look. Language and pronunciation are such curious things.
Anselm
Dec 9th, 2004 | 07:13 PM
#40
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On French in Quebec: Some years ago, when the Regie de la langue francaise -- fondly referred to as "the Tongue Troopers" by the Canadian writer Mordecai Richler, among other places, in The New Yorker, to the considerable consternation of the Quebec government at the time, which called his article "biased" -- was determined to rid the French language of all English influence, it declared that the correct French word for a hamburger was a "hambourgeois." Needless to say, even the most avid Quebecois laughed at "hambourgeois," and the word died lonely and unmourned.
At roughly the same time, it was decided that stop signs in Quebec must say "Arret" rather than "Stop," as they do in every country in the world, including France. I think they still say "Arret"... I don't drive and have long ago decided not to allow the Quebec bureaucrats to raise my blood pressure.
These are the same people who go around with rulers to measure that the English text on a bilingual sign (permitted only under the rarest of circumstances) is no larger than 50% of the size of the French text.
All the above goes far to explain why Quebec has the highest income taxes in Canada...
At roughly the same time, it was decided that stop signs in Quebec must say "Arret" rather than "Stop," as they do in every country in the world, including France. I think they still say "Arret"... I don't drive and have long ago decided not to allow the Quebec bureaucrats to raise my blood pressure.
These are the same people who go around with rulers to measure that the English text on a bilingual sign (permitted only under the rarest of circumstances) is no larger than 50% of the size of the French text.
All the above goes far to explain why Quebec has the highest income taxes in Canada...
