That should be "believe the things you say the elites believe." Sorry.

Guy-
I forgot to include 'goes to the ballet' on the list. But it belongs there.
Near the top. ;)

It would seem that less than 5% of the population belong to elite then,

That would seem to be the definition of an 'elite'. You can't have an elite that the majority belongs to, it doesn't make any sense.

The demise of Europe is highly exagerated and you have a very simplistic view. In my experience, your comments may be relevant for Germany and France but Spain and Ireland are very innovative, Italy is Italy, the UK is not dying by any means, the Nordic countries have their own way of trying to be globally competitive, it may or may not to be right but there has some innovation. The Baltic countries have the flat tax and will boom plus you have Eastern Europe. So your view seems very wrong to me, maybe you should visit somewhere besides France. You elitist.

I go to Italy, France, or Spain to get away from U.S. politics for a couple of weeks each year. The greedy, cowardly, do-nothing Republicans and Democrats turn my stomach. The thought that we have to endure more than two more years of the incompetent Bush Administration is sometimes unbearable. So, Europe is, for me, a temporary balm.

May I suggest that Europeans are more comfortable discussing politics, religion and sex because they are not particularly important to them?

((I))

You might suggest it Ira, but I do hope that you're wrong! Else, I'd feel bad on the behalf of people, more local to myself, who enjoy discussing their health and their children.

Hi C,

I suggest that they talk about health and children because P,S&R are likely to start fights.

In Europe, P&R, start heated discussions, but not fights. :)

((I))

Oh ira, I wish you luck in Drumcree come July.......

And who told you sex isn't important to Europeans? (or were they trying to let you down gently...?!)

Oh, I don't know... :D If one more person starts telling me about some health thing that no one but a doctor should hear about, I think I'll change the subject to any of the "big three".

Interesting though... I've read a few speculations on why Americans consider these taboo subjects is that we tend to make more relationships (as a society) due to our regular mobility, whereas a lower percentage of Europeans and Australians pick up and move house to another city. So the speculation is that we (Americans) develop small talk skills in order to develop friendships quickly, but stay away from the conflict possibilities hiding in those hot topics. And of course, we're making small talk to a wide range of POV's potentially found in a new neighbor, so safe is how people usually prefer to make a first impression on someone who will be there for a fair while to come.

Euros and Australians may be more comfortable because they, on a more frequent basis, know their neighbors much of their life, a comfortable in their home court and haven't had to learn to tiptoe as we have.

Or maybe not... who knows?

Sansman -
I specifically said 'old europe' which is continental western europe.
The lack of native babies being born in those countries is no secret. The huge, generous welfare states in those countries is also well known. Immigration problems and lack of assimilation is plain to see. Simple math gives the answers.
And this doesn't even touch on much deeper cultural problems such as 13,000 French people dying in the heatwave 2 years ago. Not the picture of a vibrant, innovative, competetive and healthy society.
Eastern Europe, on the other hand, is much more vibrant these days. These states (the Poles come to mind) have held onto their faith. Their churches are full. They are reproducing at better than replacement rates. Their future is bright. They understand a concept that is almost lost in W Europe; freedom. Its almost a dirty word there.

To the previous poster :

I can see that the neo-con/Rumsfeldian idea of the (bad)old Europe versus the (good) new Europe has been successfully hammered into certain simple minds, in search of self-reassurance...

Highest average number of children per woman in Europe : Ireland, France.

From a TIME magazine article in 2004:
<<<
Western European women were having an average of 2.4 children each in 1970. But as women pursued higher education, increased their role in the workforce and started having babies later, that figure has fallen to 1.5 last year. In the newer member states of Central and Eastern Europe, the drop-off has been even deeper. That means that the population of the E.U. — plus candidate countries Bulgaria and Romania, expected to join by 2007 — could drop from 482 million today to 454 million by 2050. In the same period, the E.U.'s working age population is projected to drop by 18% while the number of those aged 65 or more will soar by 60%.
>>>

Like I said, none of this is a big secret. The numbers tell the story.
I think Germany's number is down to .8 now.

How many of those kids are borne by women who consider themselves French, though? (I don't have the data, but immigrants do tend to have much higher birth rates). And Ireland is an exception, and acts much more like an Eastern European country in many ways, particularly economically.

Fascinating thread.

In answer to those who discussed whether American politics have always been this unpleasant and divisive, I have to point to my own college years, during which we commonly heard "America, love it or leave it" and "If you're not with us, you're against us."

And from a completely different direction, "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

Plus ca change...

"These states (the Poles come to mind) have held onto their faith. Their churches are full. They are reproducing at better than replacement rates."

Well, not really. Birth rate in Poland is only slightly higher than in Germany and Italy. In fact it is lower than in most of the "old" Europe countries.

Somebody asked why talk politics if your aim is not to get the other person change his/her attitude. BECAUSE IT IS FUN. My best friend ever since childhood is a communist, and we have had heated discussions for the past 30+ years. Neither of us has changed her mind, but we have had lots of fun trying to outwit each other.

Furthermore, debating with others of dissimilar views helps you examine your own beliefs; it's rare that someone will actually change their mind during a conversation (not to say it doesn't happen, but I think I've only done it once, and I've had a lot of political discussions), but they will often be forced to think more about what they believe than they would otherwise, and may see the wisdom in other views as well.