StephCar-
The elites I am referring to are the cultural elites, not the economic elites.
By contrast to the Aussie gal I talked about, we met another fella in Oz who ran a charter flight/tour service to the Great Barrier Reef. His name is Greg and some on the board will be familiar with him.
This guy is most definitely NON elite, even though he could probably buy and sell the actor/guide many times over.
It has more to do with attitude and acceptance of human nature, as opposed to trying to socially engineer society as the elites would like.
As for the US, the elites are : university professors, the mainstream media, government bureaucrats, political operatives, etc and all who seek their approval. They are the ones most infected with the PC multi-culti claptrap.
The non-elites are most of the rest; private sector employees, small business people, service people, computer geeks and so on. These people generally don't seek the approval of others. There is a healthy UN-PC streak among the non elites.
So you tell me, which major party do the elites (mostly) support? And the non elites?.
And where does most of Europe fit?

Guy, I think Kate has it right, most people are interested in sharing THEIR views and being HEARD so if your partner wants to intiate a conversation about politics, he should read up on the local sitiuation (after all, aren't all politics local).

BTW, marriage is now legal in the UK affording gay couples the same rights as heterosexuals in regards to housing, pensions, social security, etc. (following the lead of Scandinavian countires and most of Europe).

I'm proud to live in Connecticut where we became the second US state to allow same-sex civil unions (the first to do so w/out Court orders). And we managed this in a Democratic state with the help of Republican Governor who happens to be a woman.

See, we can all get along...

oh, and I forgot to list the military as being non-elite.
The military is probably the most respected public institution in the US.
And we know how they vote....

GalavantingReprobate, WHOA, you totally lost me. I am not sure I follow your train of thought. I think we are pretty much opposites on our approach. I really have no idea what party the cultural elites support vs. the non-elites or where Europe "fits." I would assume Europe as a whole does not really "fit" anywhere, I wouldn't try to categorize it on the political spectrum. Or the US, for that matter. I think that is why the last Gore v. Bush election was so close--people are really divided out there, across many fronts and issues. It is not so easy to deduce, IMHO.

What made me lol, however, is that my DH is a University Professor, and he will love it when I tell him that someone out there thinks he is part of a "cultural elite." And you would probably be surprised as to who he supports. (grin)

mvor, thanks for the info on gay rights in the UK. Was that recently? And yes I agree CT is a great state. I was born there, so I am partial to it anyway.

As Bill Clinton said upon being derisively called a member of the intellectual elite, "I always wanted to be a member of the intellectual elite." It is unfortunate that there is an eagerness on the part of some to belittle those who value academia, the arts, and, yes, multi-culturalism as though it were some sort of effete posturing or something.

guy, don't let it get to you.
Some post and know nothing of the country they visit. The French love discussion of Politics, raise their voices but are respectful when you hold your ground. Avoid money, religion. Sex it depends how well you know someone or the intent :)

Reprobate: (a) surveillance tends to undermine PUBLIC discourse (cf. the Puritans' struggles against the High Commission and the Star Chamber); (b) the issue of accountability is terribly complex. Of course teachers should be accountable, insofar as the public should expect them to do their job well, but the teacher in question really problematizes the "us" you assume teachers should be accountable to (and, frankly, what it means to do a good job). One student, one parent, one Colorado columnist, and conservative talk radio pilloried the man; the majority of his students liked him and appreciated the job he was doing - and I have yet to speak to a Colorado resident who thought all the public uproar was warranted. Taping someone without his or her knowledge is legal, but unethical; I think it common politeness to notify someone that he or she is being watched! Finally, please define "cultural elite." You have listed a bunch of folks who supposedly constitute this group, but I fail to see how they all in fact function as a cultural elite - do they set some sort of cultural agenda? Do they dominate television and the airwaves?

I think I can interpret "cultural elites", because the term has been picked up in this country too. People of a right-wing persuasion use it to disparage those who hold "politically correct" views, which means any opinions they disapprove of. Here, we're also accused of being effete sippers of chardonnay and latte. Personally I'm a red man (wine, that is), but it seems I'm branded with the Chardonnay Curse anyway.

"Elite" is a code word, designed to send a reassuring message to working-class people who haven't figured out that voting for a party bought and paid for by big business isn't a very smart move. Decoded, it means "Listen, mate - you might move your lips when you read the sports pages, you might have to take off your socks to count past ten, you might have been sacked from your last job because you forgot the way to work - but don't worry, you know more than all those pointy-headed intellectuals with their three-syllable words put together. It's all their fault that you're paid so badly that you haven't got next month's rent. Speaking of which, how would you like a nice all-expenses paid, salaried trip to the scenic Middle East? Just don't forget to show your gratitude to the government that brought you this great opportunity - and by the way, I've also got a nice bridge you can have at a good price."

This thread illustrates perfectly why (pardon the caps) YOU SHOULDN'T DISCUSS POLITICS ON YOUR TRIP TO EUROPE: it has gone on far too long, has become very boring, and in the end no one has convinced anyone else to change their views.

No problem when sitting at home and you can turn off your computer, but try turning off a political bore in full flow while sitting in a bar or restaurant.

I assume that most people who would start political discussions in Europe would be interested in what their counterparts have to say, and wouldn't find it boring. I think the problem with this thread going on so long and getting so big is that it's becoming hard to tell who said what and keep everything straight; that's a function of the design of the forum software, not a lack of conversational skill on the part of the participants.

GalavantingR, a few politics 101 issues:
- The "elite" issue is an old chestnut in the mouth of (extreme) right wing demagogues, from Mussolini to Bush Jr or Rush Limbaugh. So you aren't beating any new drum there (quite a boring and tired one, actually)
- Of course the European commission is not elected: it's an executive body that proceeds from the elected European Parliament. Do you get to elect your Secretary of State or Agriculture?

"in the end no one has convinced anyone else to change their views"

Political discussion does not aim to change the opponents wiews.

So what does it aim to do, then?

Sure, political junkies find the topic fascinating, but woe betide the rest of us.

Oh, we're all well versed in conversational skills (apart from - well, you fill in the blanks). That's why we're all here and not talking to real people!

If a political discussion is not aimed to change any views (possible I suppose) then its actual aim must be one of two:

to make sure that someone's views are made known

to hear oneself talk.

Why not both?

Many and soon to be the majority of all folks in Europe are on the "social dole" - I saw a year or more ago that 50% of all retirees will be "totally" dependent on government handouts for "all" their income by 2015, and their economies are currently suffering (from Eurosclerosis) more than the US from outsourcing.
Politics? Make an appointment with the "new" Jacques Chirac.
Please refrain from bashing private enterprise as that's the "only" productive sector remaining world wide.
M

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, just sharing some thoughts and experiences.
As to the elite thing - again,its not a money thing. Many people make plenty of money who would not be considered part of the cultural elite.
And conversely, a starving student who has 3 advanced degrees in non-science areas but has never had a real job or even been out of school is an elite wanna-be.
It comes down to a person's outlook on life and understanding of humand nature.
An elitist attitude:
Every culture is equal to any other culture.
War never solved anything and is always wrong.
The biggest problem in the world is inequality.(kinda an ironic one).
We should strive to never, ever offend anybody,(save white christians, they are always fair game) and maybe pass laws to this effect.
In any dispute between the West and the 3rd world, the West is wrong.
Is militantly secular and anti-religious.
Believes humanity is infinitely malleable and ultimately perfectable.
and of course, the litmus test- capitalism is immoral.

The non-elites believe the exact opposite of those things.
And as I said, these opinions are mutually exclusive, so there is contempt of the elites by the nons, but it is dwarfed by the contempt the elites have for the nons.

And to the complainers in the thread- well, there are plenty of other threads to participate in that don't have the word politics in their titles. I bet you can even find out what shoes you shouldn't wear in July in Paris. And yes, leave the fanny pack at home.

Mikemo-
France has many problems, not the least of which is the exploding number of unassimilated immigrants who will soon inherit France by default. French society, and all of 'old europe' is in a demographic death spiral. They are having no babies. This, combined with an unsustainable welfare state and immigration is their demise.
Try to make even a modest change in the welfare state and people riot and break stuff.
I have noticed the decline in europe since I began travelling there years ago. There is no work ethic. No innovation. No jobs. Only greedy citizens constantly trying to get more from the government and prepared to riot if they don't.
A big problem now is the 'brain drain' going on that sees their most capable people leaving and going to places where their talents are rewarded.
So... visit europe while you can, it will not look the same in another 10 years.

Sorry Reprobate, but your definitions are so loaded with right-wing assumptions that they're laughable. Only the most agenda-driven extremist would believe the things you say of the "elites." I for one am against the war in Iraq. Yet I'm no pacifist. In fact I don't believe most of the things on your list, and I don't know any fellow liberal democrats who do. Yet, as an over-educated, ballet-attending, latte- sipping, Walmart eschewing Bush-hater, I am clearly a member of the "elite" that you describe.