Franco-
We spent all the time at the UN specifically to placate our 'allies'. It got us nothing. Less than nothing in fact.
Look, I consider myself a europhile. I've been to almost all the countries there and had a ball. But I am quite aware of the anti-americanism in many EU countries (going on much longer than the present war) and I don't bother worrying about their opinions anymore. Just as the Euros don't care for ours.
Hence, don't talk politics as a tourist.
It was 72 and sunny here last saturday....

Whoa...Perhaps travel forums as well as pubs are not great places to discuss politics.

Actually, I could use a drink after reading these. I guess I will drink to free speech.

Always a good thing to drink to!

grsng, I'd have to respectfully disagree about the level of intolerance being equal on both sides of the political divide. Just listen to right-wing radio which is either calling democrats wackos or making fun of Chelsea Clinton's appearance. Then listen to the preferred radio of lefties, the polished, reasonable NPR. That says it all IMHO.

And no, Scouser, it hasn't always been this unpleasant. America has become divided not only politically but culturally, with religious, rural America at odds with more secular, urban America. The unpleasantness started, in my opinion, when their side started taking the offense with organizations like the Christian Coalition and Focus on the Family and creating their own media outlets. They saw themselves as fighting back against an increasingly liberal media and power structure. And a fight it has become...

Party's over, folks. Dialog is downhill from here. Don't peek at this thread again. It ain't going to recover.

Compare Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. Not much difference, as far as I see it. Yes, conservatives have something of an advantage on talk radio. But compare newspapers. NYT/WaPo on one hand and ? what on the conservative side with anything like the distribution? WSJ, sure, but that's a different sort of conservatism than Republicans (my kind of conservatism, incidentally, and also quite similar to the Economist, albeit a British magazine).

Oh, and Air America is probably a better counterpart to conservative talk radio; NPR is, after all, a government apparatus.

MaryFran, I'm sorry you feel that way. I think it's been a fairly respectful exchange of ideas. I hope it's not my post that turned you off, as I was merely trying to answer Scouser's question (recognising she's English) and bounce ideas around with grsing. No hard feelings that I can see.

Mary Fran: complaining on the state of the dialog certainly isn't contributing to it; for a fairly political discussion, it's been remarkably civil (maybe it's the presence of the Brits, though, looking at the Commons, their politics seem enthusiastic as well).

MaryFran, growing up in a family that had one half liberal Democrats and the other half staunch conservative Republicans I personally am interested in everyones posts and thoughts here on this thread.

The only time I do not like political discussions is when one side starts to call the other sides idiots, uneducated etc. Thankfully that never happened in my family although I admit political conversation did get a bit loud at times. But everyone did end up sitting down at the dinner table and enjoying a good Sunday dinner.

<< grsng, I'd have to respectfully disagree about the level of intolerance being equal on both sides of the political divide. Just listen to right-wing radio which is either calling democrats wackos or making fun of Chelsea Clinton's appearance. Then listen to the preferred radio of lefties, the polished, reasonable NPR. That says it all IMHO. >>

I guess people only see intolerance where they want to see it. How is Air America's Al Franken comments about lying, liar, lying Republicans any different than Limbaugh's Democrat wackos? I don't see tolerance on either side and can't stand listening to the blabbing of either side for more than a few minutes.

wtm: I agree; I'd rather listen to reasoned debate from a communist than mean-spirited rhetoric from someone I agree with, it's just not effective for all but the party faithful, to whom it's just comforting, but not at all useful or productive.

The thread seems pretty lively and respectful to me. Seems to me if you didn't want to talk politics you wouldn't get past the title of the thread.
Topic being talking politics in Europe, the last time I was there (UK) was March 2003. It was a fun trip. Me, the wife, her sister and my mother in law. We were there during the big anti-war protest in the runup to the war. The protest was mostly an annoyance because it made it difficult to get from one end of town to the other. Looked like more of a party than a protest but I digress....
I think that in Europe, like America and Australia, you have the opinions of the elite and you have the opinions of the masses. This is a mutually exclusive set. Being part of the elite doesn't necessarily correlate to how rich a person is either.
The average Joe, or Jacque, or Antonio, one who makes an honest living in this world and is not a part of the elite and does not aspire to be part of the elite is an eminently sensible person, capable of wide ranges of interests and abilities, each unique. When I travel it's these people I enjoy talking to most because they have their finger on the pulse of the masses in a way the elites do not.
Fortunately, when we travel we have more contact with non-elites than elites.
Here's an example that illustrates the point- We were in Australia in the runup to their last election and at that point the polls showed a dead heat between Howard's Liberals and Latham's Labor. Almost everybody we came in casual contact with wanted to talk politics, which I would, always very friendly. (God bless the Aussies).
One evening my wife and I took a pub tour, which is a guided walk around the Rocks area with stops at the historic pubs. It was great fun. Our guide was a lovely redhead gal who did this for extra money while persuing her acting job. An artist type.
As the evening went on, she thought she'd really elaborate on how she could not stand Howard, or any of his friends (hint hint), and how the election the following week would sweep Labor to power, get rid of that mean, nasty Howard and generally make everything all okay again after 6 years in the darkness.
I respectfully disagreed, predicting a Howard win, and a Bush win later that same year (boy did she hate Bush).
This gal was part of the Australian elite, having all the proper attitudes and opinions and all the proper PCspeak and a nice state job drinking with tourists. Problem was, she was out of touch.
The masses, as usual, were quite sensible and she finds herself still in the darkness.
Cabbies, Hotelworkers, barkeeps, shopkeepers, waiters and waitresses, bus drivers, ......those are the people I relate to best when I am on the road.

I found that when speaking with Europeans while traveling, they are obsessed with 9-11 ...wanting to know my experineces and wanting to share their own experiences...then after 9-11 discussions are exhausted comes...it was just like when President Kennedy was assassinated (now, my most rescent trip was to Ireland, but I mostly talked to other European travelers; mostly German, English, Scottish, and Welsh)...but rarely did conversations get "political"...

there was however the one conversation with an Irishman in a pub in Dublin("in a pub" is probably the key factor to this story) when after an hour or so of discussing Irish history, family, education, money/Euro, etc. he stood up, put two fingers under his nose, extended his hand in the air (a la Hitler) and asked "so what do you think of your president, George Bush?" . well, considering that I am a supporter of President Bush things could have really deteriorated from there, but we actually went on having a respectful, semi-intelligent (I did mention that we were in a pub!) conversation.

chip, I have to say...if that Aussie had the foresight on Bush six years ago I would say she was very in touch with the world general world view, regardless of her "elite" status.

In fact, I often find the opposite, that people that support W are often the elite and out of touch. I suppose we can agree to disagree, respectfully of course. (grin)

My compliments to all the posters on this thread who have made it one of the most civil threads on a political discussion that I have seen.
You're th best!

Franco...if the American public had gotten a blow by blow account of what happened at Normandy, what do you think would have happened? Everything that could go wrong at Omaha did go wrong. Would we have had the stomach for it? Doubtful.

Excuse me...the whole world had the same intelligence...even Saddam said he had the weapons. Why blame one person?

chip, my apologies. My post should actually be directed to GalavantingReprobate who posted above you. You are probably scratching your head at the moment! Sorry! And to GalavantingReprobate, I was actually referring to your Aussie story, in case you missed it.

I am returning to my pint now. . .

StephCar-
That was 2 years ago, after Howard was in office for 6 yrs already.
Why people still put any faith in polls I'll never know.
The guy serving your beer in the hotel bar is a more reliable barometer.
And I know a thing or 2 about hotel bars...;)

GalavantingReprobate, no worries, I would never (verbally) bite the hand of the barkeep that brings me my pint, under ANY circumstances. How would I ever get drunk doing that? (lol)

Perhaps we are saying the same thing, because I agree that cabbies, hotel workers, shopkeepers etc. do have their fingers on reality and the general pulse of the nation. The only thing is, I have rarely (if ever, I would have to really think hard on this one) found anyone in these positions that support Bush or agree with many of his policies. (And I am not just saying that because I am anti-Bush, just reporting the facts as I have encountered them.)