On discussing politics in Europe
 

My partner, with whom I'm about to travel to Europe, loves to discuss politics with Europeans (we are American). He especially likes to find out what the people we meet think of the present U.S. administration and also to let them know that many Americans, including himself, find said administration despicable. I feel uncomfortable with this behavior. I believe that sex, religion and politics are not things to be discussed with people you have just met. Moreover, I'm assuming that the Europeans don't enjoy being my friend's "survey group." I'd feel condescended to if I were in their position. That said, the agreement is that he can discuss these things when I'm not around. And just so you know, aside from this, he is nearly perfect :) I was just interested in everyone's opinion, especially Europeans (who are, sadly, probably all sleeping now...)

You know I like politics discussions as well and had a few on a recent trip to France and Italy. The thing is, I never bring it up. I let them. They are free with their opinions and it can make for interesting conversation. But again I never initiate the subject.

I wouldn't bring it up with complete strangers, but if you've been talking for a while (hour or so, at least), it could be appropriate, if tactfully and respectfully done (if your partner wants to invade their country, it's probably best not to, but if he's fairly mainstream, and you're talking to fairly mainstream Europeans, it should be fine and likely quite interesting, especially as most Europeans I've met have fairly strong opinions on politics, and are often, though by no means always, better informed about international politics than Americans).

I think most Europeans are more comfortable discussing politics than we are. They more knowledgeable about our politics than we are of theirs, and also very aware of the fact that many of us do not agree with the current administration. But I think it's better to let them bring up the topic. . . if they want to. I think he will have trouble finding anyone who doesn't agree with him, so it's not likely to lead to heated conversation in any case.

Hi Guy, friends in Italy love to talk politics and we always do. But like you I don't discuss politics with strangers. And I agree with grsing that a lot of Europeans do seem more aware of the world than a lot of Americans. I believe there is a place and time for everything and it is good to know what is the proper place and time.

If you and your friend were guests in the home of strangers, would you think it would be good manners to bring up political discussions unless your hosts, of course, initiated the topic?

In our more than 40 years of travel abroad, we have followed this rule: we are guests. And we behave always with that fact in mind.

Guy,

I see nothing wrong with it providing it comes up naturally in conversation and it is discussion not argument.

And we aren't all asleep over here ;-) (nearly called myself European but that wouldn't do given my views on the EU - whoops, politics already).

Michael

Thanks for the replies thus far. I'm glad to hear that I'm not being overly sensitive or censorious. The analogy about being guests hits the nail right on the head. In that case one lets the hosts take the lead...

The visitor analogy sound and is a policy I try to adopt myself. On the other hand as host to visitors to my country I should willingly respond to their questions if politely asked.

First of all, I don't see why it should be bad manners to discuss politics - heaven, no! That's one of the most important and most interesting things to discuss in this world; and what should be wrong about talking interesting issues even with strangers? (My roots are European, as you might already guess.)
Second, it depends on where you're going. In some European countries, especially if you are coming from a country administrated by a controversial government (and, yes, the WBush government IS controversial), it might very well be the first thing complete strangers will ask YOU - "what's your position towards your president?" The Netherlands are a very good country to experience that...
Third, it is true that many Europeans are quite knowledgeable on international affairs - but not on America or American internal politics. But, as for the opinions of your partner, don't fear many hostile arguments - maybe the most important improvement in European knowledge about the USA has been achieved thanks to the huge enthusiasm Michael Moore has roused in Europe. "Shame on you, Mr. Bush" won't be the entirely wrong way to put it, thus...

Oh gosh, if someone were to actually ask him what his position toward his president is, it would be the highlight of his trip and we'd definitely miss a train or something...

I think that sex, religion and politics are fascinating topics and definitely should not be off the table for discussion, so long as everyone participates in the discussion voluntarily.

Some of my most memorable experiences in Europe have come from those types of discussions.

However, I also think we in the US are incredibly narcisistic and are rarely able to articulate any kind of grasp of the current political environment of the countries we visit. "Enough about you! Let's talk about me and the U.S. some more. By the way, do these pants make my butt look too big?" If I were European, I'd find that king of self-obsession sophomoric and annoying.

Just relax. An interesting political discussion, especially on a subject as thrilling as the different political cultures of Europe and the USA, can be more rewarding sometimes than taking a train in time... And I swear, I've experienced that myself: "what's your position towards your government?" - not only in the Netherlands, but e.g. in Italy as well, or in Liechtenstein (of all places); and I can very well imagine it happening in Germany, in France, maybe even in Belgium or in Austria...

Excuse me, my response was meant to Guy once more. I fully agree with you, Mary.

I also agree, Mary. Perhaps I feel that it would be more appropriate to ask what the waiter, or desk clerk, or seat companion thinks of HIS president...only after finding out what the president's name is, of course!

Europeans don't generally know much more about US domestic politics than we do about theirs (varys from person to person of course; many Americans can't name even the US secretary of state, while some can rattle off all the heads of state and some of the ministers and leaders of the opposition in Euro countries, in addition to our own). They'll know Bush, and likely Condi and Cheney, but that's about it; international politics is where they are generally much more knowledgable.

Just a thought, but I wonder whether your partner might be interested in joing Servas, which is (quoting its website) "an international network of hosts and travelers building peace by providing opportunities for personal contact between people of diverse cultures and backgrounds." I've been a Servas traveller and a Servas host, and it provides a great opportunity to meet people, discuss politics, and learn more about what's going on politically in other countries. Of course, discussions aren't limited to politics--Servas members' interests range all over. Their US website is www.servas.org.

I've had many conversations with Europeans about their politics and ours, and I generally find that Europeans and the British don't like their political leaders any more than we like ours.

Just about the only conversation I avoid is about the British monarchy, unless I already know the person I'm talking to shares my views on the subject. But it's not a very interesting conversation anyway!

No, it's not. It's www.usservas.org. The other site is for Servs International, of which US Servas is a part. Sorry.

Yikes. My "no it's not" was meant as a follow-up to my last sentence, not Nessundorma's. Sloppy posting on my part.

Thanks so much, KT! I think we'd both be interested in this. Will look into it some more. Very thoughtful of you to provide the link!

Because I am a non-bush fan, I found it opened doors for me in France. The French do not like him. I was there during the Cheney hunting accident and that let to an almost 4 hour lunch with some French at my communal table.

Well, I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics on this board, but in Europe--hell YES!!! Everywhere we go we're happy to be "ambassadors of sanity" and share our great dislike for the current administration with people in France, Italy, and Spain, who share our dislike and it makes for a very human and empathetic understanding. Especially in Italy and Spain where it wasn't that long ago that they too had to live under Fascism.

The only uncomfortable political discussions I've been involved in have occurred in the U.S. where tolerance of opposing views is increasingly scarce. (Of course, after seeing today's poll numbers on Bush, perhaps there is a certain coalesence in process.)

I think, as long as you respect the other's opinion and exercise basic diplomacy with regard to timing, it's possible to have an interesting exchange of ideas.

"I believe that sex, religion and politics are not things to be discussed with people you have just met"

So what, worthwhile, does that leave?

Strangers are unlikely to share your expertise on logical positivism, and vacuous gibbering about "I just love your cute little town" is what got Americans their reputation in the first place.

I think that if you don't think that the current US administration and it's chief is the 'be all and end all' then you will have many enlightening conversations.

I also think that Europeans are more aware of world issues than many Americans.

Don't get me wrong I love living here in the US but I hate being dragged into potentially controversial conversations purely because we are seen as better informed.

BBCAmerica news should be used as an educational tool :-)

Ah, politics. People who know me (as in, we have spent more than one hour together. . . that seems to be all Spaniards need) ask me lots of questions. If they catch me in a bad mood, I can be pretty confrontational. I usually ask them if they think that their government is in line with their thinking. That went over really well when Aznar was in charge and he was not very popular. I always got the "hell no!" answer, and would then ask "so how do you think I feel?"

Those who ask are generally educated enough to know that not all Americans (or any nationality, for that matter) support the unpopular decisions their government makes. And many are really satisfied if you are vehemently opposed and get really upset if you are pro-Bush. If someone asks, though, they should be ready for whatever answer.

One thing I think is funny is that in Spain, people were always really surprised I am not a Bush supporter. I am from Texas, meaning I should be, right? Well, they always looked for some concrete reason. "Oh, you don't like him because you are Indian (Cherokee)." Or "You have him because you are educated/because you travel/because you are a woman, etc." So, if you are traveling with your partner, it would not be weird for them to say "You hate him because you are gay." That really upset a friend who came to visit me, and it was not meant in malice, but simply as a way of understanding.

You and your partner should watch the news wherever you are and see the information the natives are getting. That way you know the deck from which they are dealing.

"I believe that sex, religion and politics are not things to be discussed with people you have just met."

Of course you can discuss politics. At its best it is fun, and it is public. Sex and religion are personal.

They say to really find out about a person you should do two things with them: travel and play cards.

There are worse traits in a Husbear than the desire to discuss politics.

As an American who has been living in Europe for several years, I can assure you that many Europeans are not half as well informed about American politics as they *think* they are. Their knowledge is a kilometer wide and a centimeter deep--fact cherrypicking is their MO. Most of their "knowledge" comes from very biased publications/media that happen to coincide with their point of view; I see and hear this all the time in the UK--pub bores are among the LEAST knowledgeable and the most voluble (probably on many issues besides U.S. politics). And the last thing they are interested in is a meaningful conversation--it's ALL about scoring points of some kind and bragging rights that they told an American a thing or two.
Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to that rule and the people who know the most are also the least likely to stereotype Americans or any other nationality for that matter. Probably the most meaningful political conversation I had was in a Brussels laundromat with a French businessman. As we fluffed and folded on a Sunday morning, we discussed politics and world issues. He said he was tired of some of his compatriots who like to portray all Americans as marching in lock step with some right wing view. He said he would hate to think Americans thought he was in complete agreement with everything Chirac did--"You know, not once has Monsieur Chirac called and asked me for my opinion," he said. "I imagine Mr. Bush has not called and asked for yours either."
But it's true that most Europeans have *some* (however distorted) familiarity with American policies...how could they avoid it? We are the 500 pound gorilla in the room. It would be very hard NOT to notice what America does on the world stage. Some of them will be very eager to talk politics, some of them won't be in the least interested and most will fall somewhere in between.

By the way, political discussions can arise from the most unexpected encounters. At a conference in Vienna, during a break between sessions, I sneezed. The German standing next to me promptly said, "Long life and double income!". I asked him, "whatever happened to gesundheit?" And from there we had a pleasant and mutually enlightening (I hope) discussion on economics, politics and the EU.

I think a lot depends on how you approach any topic of conversation - using the "guest" analogy.

In most European countries (though this can vary from culture to culture), it's not polite, in conversation with someone you don't know well, to approach a lot of topics directly and personally. Not just sex, religion and politics, incidentally, but also money, health and anything that might be considered personal.

It's one thing to say (for example), "I've always wondered how teachers [or whatever your job is] in this country are valued", it's quite another to ask "What was in your pay cheque this month?"; or (as American visitors have said to me) "How does your health service work in practice?", which is OK, rather than "So what happens if you get a boil on your butt?", which is not.

Same with talking politics. "Whaddaya think about W?" may or may not get an interesting conversation going, but it would sound aggressive from a stranger. I think Guy18 would probably be right to feel condescended to if his partner's approach is directly to front up with his own concerns as described. Something much more neutral might be safer and more productive: and given the timing, wouldn't it be more up to date to ask something like "How are the media here covering who might be the next President?" - it's an open question that can be answered in lots of different ways and lets the other party's response give you cues as to how personal you can get.

Guy18, if you don't like GWB you will find many Europeans who agree with you. Personally I feel that American politics should be left at home, and you should use your trip as an opportunity to learn more about Europe and its people. Anyway, who cares whether you like the present administration or not?

If your partner respects your wishes, he will steer clear of topics that make you uncomfortable. Otherwise, at best you will be bored with the conversation, and at worst you will end up in a heated discussion that will cause ill feelings all round.

Hello Guy18,

I would like to back PatricLondon.

Ask for facts, not for opinions. You will get to know your contrary´s opinion nevertheless.

For me, it seems much more interesting to ask an European on, well, maybe media - what television programs are there? which ones do you look? Which ones might be of interest for me?

What newspaper do you read? (I don´t know for the US citizen, but for a German it is quite revealing: To read a national distributed newspaper identificates its reader as a person of a certain income and more, of certain knowlege. More details:

To read Frankfurter Allgemeine (FAZ) is a sign of a conservative, either businessman or official (look out for its design, the only photo ever published on the first page was, when the wall in Berlin was crumbling) - or of an intellectual. This one would say, but I read it just for the cultural reports (feuilleton in German).

One who reads Süddeutsche Zeitung might tend to liberalism wih a favour for solid journalism, one who is reading Frankfurter Rundschau might tend to a environmentalists opinion.

People reading the regional distributed newspaper are still interested in the worls, but they first want to know about their community. The habit of reading (regional distributed newspapers aren´t relying on sale but on subscription) is common amongst elder, but not so amongst younger people. They have other media for information.

And there are people reading the tabloids, but they will not discuss any item in a foreign language.

I also think it would be polite to take an interest in the host's own country' politics, rather than just asking them about America. Concentrating political conversations on US politics is rather self-centred and will only reinforce stereotypes of the US only being interested in themselves. I had a great political chat with italian friends the other week - yes we talked about Iraq, but we didn't talk about the US (there wouldn't be an interesting debate there anyway, as we all feel the same). We talked about Blair and Belusconi.

And don't be shocked if a european describes himself as 'communist' - the 'c' word isn't such a scandal in western europe, even if it's a minority view.

don't expect to score points and make friends by going around bad mouthing your government. i don't believe this is a good approach to meeting people, whereever you are.

trying to "teach" people over here that you are not all the same or whatever your objective might be is tiresome and would be a bore for me. unless you have something really enlightening to say, don't say anything...and if you do have some new ideas, save them for times when you get into in-depth conversations and they come up naturally.

i also agree with kate...focusing on your own country is self serving and not a good approach when meeting people. it's not all about you and your americanism or your issues with your government. please don't bore us with this.

I find this automatic assumption that Europeans know more about everything amusing.
The corollarry assumption is that Americans in general are ignorant of everything.
In Europe, most states now have 'hate speech' laws on the books. This makes many topics taboo. What kind of free exchange of ideas can you have in a country that can jail or fine you for debating, say, gay rights or the political implications of religions?
My advice; just avoid it. Its not worth the hassle and us Americans should never be in a position to be lectured to by citizens of countries that made the 20th century the bloodiest ever.

Bonjour GalavantingReprobate,

You write: "In Europe, most states now have 'hate speech' laws on the books. This makes many topics taboo. What kind of free exchange of ideas can you have in a country that can jail or fine you for debating, say, gay rights or the political implications of religions?"


Where in the Wide World of Sports did you get this preposterous notion ? There are laws against racist, hate-mongering public talk, or holocaust denial and apology of genocide, which is rather different than debating the issues at stake.

Back to the subject :

You can discuss almost anything in Europe, even sex and religion, as long as you don't lecture people (like pretending your country has no lesson to receive from another ;-), and you don't make it personnal (like telling someone he's an idiot/immoral/going to hell for not sharing your views).

I don't think most people assume that Europeans know more about anything, just taht we were talking about international politics and such. Ask an American off the street to locate, say, Russia, on an unlabeled map and most of them will have problems. Now, it makes some sense that Europeans would know more, since they live in much greater proximity to a lot of foreign countries, and with the EU and the ease of travel around Europe and N. Africa, as well as many of their colonial legacies, it just makes even more sense. Ask a European where Nebraska is on an unlabelled map (roughly the size of many European countries), and they probably won't know, either (though I'm not sure how many wars Nebraska has started, from the viewpoint of importance in history and the like). I guess the point is, different people know different things,

Europeans would rather discuss national and international politics than talk about their own problems. Talking about your own problems is very personal.

US citizens would rather talk about their own problems than politics. Discussing politics can be a very personal matter.