Robin's observation on the "favorite poster" thread was interesting. Took a look at the US forum similar thread and the instant venom was interesting ... to say the least. <BR> <BR>Anyway, the last poster on the US forum thread said, "But that goes with the territory. people who like to travel to Europe are on average older and better socialized than people who only go to Vegas and Six Flags." <BR> <BR>Other than the fact that some of us travel both in the US and to Europe, as well as elsewhere, is there any substance to the observation? <BR> <BR>twenj

Interesting question, Ed. <BR> <BR>Assuming we're comparing people who travel in both Europe & the U.S. vs. those who only travel in the U.S. (as opposed to, say, those who travel in Asia & the U.S., etc.), I'd guess the average age of Europe & U.S. travelers would be a bit greater if for no other reason than older people tend to (IMO, anyway) have more disposable income and I'd guess that an "average" trip to/in Europe costs more than an "average" trip within the U.S. <BR> <BR>As for being "better socialized"? Hmmmm...not as sure about that, or at least that choice of a word. What I'd say is that people who are interested in European travel -- in addition to U.S. travel -- probably tend to be more *curious* about other cultures, compared to those who only travel within the U.S.

Hi Ed, We are like cheese here, piquant, aged, mellow, ripened, yes? <BR>Judy

Very provocative post, Ed. <BR>I contribute to both forums--actually more on the US one, since I have more travel experience here than abroad. <BR>First, I think there is definitely a great dichotomy on the US forum in terms of the type of vacation travel and destinations preferred. <BR>One prime example is Las Vegas. Mention that destination on the US forum and it's sure to provoke strong passions both for and against. With rare exception, the European forum doesn't arouse such passions about any destination. (The only thing that seems to arouse heated passion on the European forum is Rex!) <BR>Second, I find there's a higher degree of travel sophistication on the European forum.

Let's see, how many more self-congratulatory, arrogant strokes can we give ourselves? This is the kind of post that will invariably lead to more Pompous Ass accusations, and rightly so. <BR> <BR>If you want to stroke yourself, do it some place private.

and contributions from me, hee-hee, ha-ha! <BR>

What exactly does "better socialized" mean anyway? Is it a euphemism for "rich and sophisticated"?

There are plenty of people who have neither the money nor the inclination to leave the USA. They may be rich or poor, educated or not, but what is meant by "socialized?" Socialized to what? True, people who gravitate to Europe and foreign destinations probably are more highly educated in general and have higher incomes in general (and may therefore be older by virtue of having worked longer for their income), but I think what distinguishes the two groups, if there are two groups, is a sense of adventure, a longing to see the world. Some people are simply happy to stay close to home and to feel safe. Some people like risks and going farther afield. Is that being "socialized?" I don't think so. <BR>I know people who have enough money to travel around the world every year who choose never to leave the USA. Conversely, I know people who scrimp and save out of fairly meager incomes to make a trip to Europe every year or two. Both are "socialized." What I don't know are people who consider DisneyWorld and Las Vegas the only types of vacations they'd take. And since I don't know people like this, I can't comment on how "socialized" they might be. But I would guess that they ae "socialized" within their own social group, meaning others who take these and only these types of trips. Maybe they haven't had the opportunity to expand their travel horizons, maybe they're intimidated to go beyond American schlock, maybe they're just too poor to travel any farther and have resigned themselves to theme parks and roulette wheels, or, maybe, this is what makes them happy! I don't care to judge how someone should take a vacation. I have encouraged many people I know who otherwise would not have taken the chance, to go to Europe, and seen the wonderful results it has produced in opening their eyes to something completely novel, but you can't expect all of America to sucumb to the allure of Europe as we see it. If Paris, Las Vegas, turns them on, let them enjoy every minute of it. I'll never be there, but that's just my choice, and I don't think I'm any better "socialized" than anyone. Better traveled, maybe, that's all.

It means we are toilet trained and [generally] don't foam at the mouth

The poster on the US Forum who said those who go to Vegas are younger obviously never got elbowed in a casino by eighty year olds with bags full of nickels. As for European forum posters being "older and more socialized," we are regressing: Lately this forum's taken a childish and decidedly anti-social swing. Please, please let's get back to helping each other plan and enjoy our much anticipated trips abroad!

Very good observations, StCirq. <BR> <BR>Re: "I don't care to judge how someone should take a vacation." <BR> <BR>Likewise. While I don't judge people for how (or where) they choose to vacation, I'll admit that I'm very curious about people who -- although they have the money -- never vacation outside of the U.S., not just in Europe, but anywhere outside of the U.S. Are they perhaps fearful of other cultures/countries? Simply not interested? Other reasons? <BR> <BR>I once had a co-worker who, although very interested in -- and fairly knowledgeable about -- Europe, had no interest whatsoever in actually traveling there. I once asked him why and he said "Everything I could ever care to see is in Washington [state]." Now, admittedly, Washington has a lot of natural diversity -- from snow-covered mountains to desert plateau to rain forest -- but I still found his comment (and attitude) to be fascinating.

I'd rather see discussions comparing ideas, than people. Drawing comparisons between those who travel to one place versus another isn't very meaningful. I know, I know, Europe is supposed to be more 'sophisticated' than Las Vegas in the way that opera is supposed to be more sophisticated than, say, a rock concert, but then hey, back in Mozart's time, opera WAS the rock concert of the time. And the Globe theatre in London was the happy stomping ground of the masses. Time changeth all 'shlock' into art.... <BR> <BR>Incidentally, I'd rather hear about how to make posts more useful, or entertaining, in some concrete sense, than to focus discussion on the person/people making the posts.

Well, Ed, since that was my comment over on the US forum, I'll expand a bit on the CONTEXT, to better explain my meaning. <BR>The US forum involves a younger reader than this one. The number of questions dealing with first visits to Las Vegas or Branson, Dollywood or Disney World, is overwhelming. The percentage of questions relating to Hawaiian honeymoons is striking as well. <BR>So point one is that the posters on the US forum are a younger bunch IMO. <BR> <BR>Posters here, while not necessarily drooling and trailing catheter bags behind them, I will bet are on average at least 10+ years older. <BR> <BR>As to the 'socialization' comment, ("cultural socialization" would have been the more descriptive/apt phrase) those who travel to Europe must, on average, have a greater desire to learn, explore and understand other cultures than those who never venture beyond the US. Sure, it's possible to visit London and eat at McD's and buy $7 T-shirts as souvenirs and fail to come away without an iota of cultural enrichment. But that's only an argument for the extreme case. <BR> <BR>As for "patting ourselves on the back", 'holding', give me a break and get off your holier than thou high horse. It is a privilege to be able to travel. To have the means, the freedom, the health, even the motivation. Whether you choose to recognize/accept it or not, it is an enviable thing to be able to accumulate the experiences/knowledge which travel offers. The social order of man allows that, in general, experience accords a measure of recognition or respect...whether that 'experience' is an educational degree, or life experience. Again, I'm speaking in general social terms. 20 years as CEO of a corporation, raising 5 children, surviving a plane crash. All examples. Same with travel 'experience'. <BR>So, no, Ed is not simply admiring himself in the mirror of this forum. Yes, one could do that ("am I not superior to all those yokels on my block who haven't visited Prague and Athens?"). <BR>Think about it. <BR>No agenda here. It's just a bit of perspective, interesting or not depending on your tastes.

I really dislike posters who constantly pat themselves on the back (and expect others to do so as well), stating how sophisticated and superior they are because they travel to Europe. They then go on to put down US destinations. <BR> <BR>I have done plenty of traveling in Europe--in recent years mostly through home exchanges. Those exchanges have enabled me to go places--and stay longer--than I could if I had to pay for accomodation. I have had wonderful trips to Europe, but I have also had great exchanges in the US and Canada. If I only have a week to spare, my favorite destination would be the great American West, preferably including a white water raft trip. <BR> <BR>I have had, by the way, home exchanges in Orlando and Las Vegas. There is nothing wrong with those destinations--and no reason for people who like those places to be put down by others who think they are "schlock". I like Disney--but not as the destination for every vacation. I also had great fun in Las Vegas without putting a nickel into a slot. I drove to the Grand Canyon and saw some wonderful shows. Of course, Las Vegas is "schlock" but it is also fun. It is a different sort of fun from Europe. <BR> <BR>The important thing is that YOU go where YOU want to go--and damned be him who tries to tell you it is not the "right" place. It is, after all, YOUR trip and no one else's. <BR> <BR>As for those who are constantly putting down the US as a tourist destination, they could MOVE to Europe. If they did, they would probably want to vacation in the US any chance they get. You do know what the European destination of choice is? The US. And, they LOVE Las Vegas and Disney simply because they don't have a lot of those sorts of places in Europe. <BR> <BR>Wherever you go, just have fun and don't worry about what the board mavens think.

As a fairly new poster, maybe I should keep my mouth shut. I know there are lots of very specific questions, and sometimes we just like to have a little fun. Some questions are about our impressions, but I think they are all legitimate. We are here to share information and ideas and impressions. Some may overstep their bounds, but just skip tose messages. Let's all have fun and share our ideas, adventures, and thoughts. <BR>Be nice , nice is good!

Lauren ~ Re: "You do know what the European destination of choice is? The US. And, they LOVE Las Vegas and Disney simply because they don't have a lot of those sorts of places in Europe." <BR> <BR>Well, that goes along with my earlier comment that Americans (i.e. U.S. citizens) who are interested in European travel -- in addition to U.S. travel -- probably tend to be more *curious* about other cultures, compared to those who only travel within the U.S. <BR> <BR>In the same way, I'd think that Europeans who travel outside of their native country probably tend to be more curious about other cultures/countries, than those who don't. <BR> <BR>I don't put down anyone who chooses to never travel outside their native country. But I'm just curious as to why (assuming they can afford it, of course) they would choose that. <BR>

Capo-interesting question. Here are many of the reasons I hear: <BR>*grandparents live in Omaha <BR>*niece's college graduation in Texas <BR>*family reunion in Oklahoma <BR>*son at Air Force Academy/visit Colorado <BR>*take the kids to DC to know some of OUR <BR> history <BR>*new baby in family in Oregon <BR>*the grand canyon is pretty neat too... <BR>*and my own (sometimes) "lets use that $50,000+ motorhome and park somewhere near green grass (we live in the desert), relax (no rushing, no planning-even though I do enjoy that a lot-no languare barriers, etc.) and just fish!" <BR>So, much of the time I feel its not that people would not *love* to go to Europe they just have other priorities. <BR>Even me at times! <BR>Patti <BR>

One thing that I've concluded during the months of reading and contributing to this forum is that while people with enthusiasm for foreign travel may have many wonderful qualities, including intellectual curiosity, energy, strong observational skills, intelligence, and a sense of adventure, they (we) are certainly not BETTER socialized than humans in general, and some are much much worse. The nastiness, vindictiveness and intolerance reflected in so many recent posts is evidence of that. <BR> <BR>I do think that people who like to travel to foreign destination tend to be more intellectually curious, more adventurous, and, in certain ways, more confident than people who vacation only within their own country. Travelers to foreign countries may also be "differently" schooled, if not actually "better educated" in that they tend to have studied foreign languages, history, foreign literature, foreign politics and economics. (The accountants/marketing/business types I know, for example, had narrower education and never seem to leave the country.) <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

StCirq: Diva of Drivel...so uptight. Such an unmitigated snob. More (all her waking) hours of attention to anonymous travel boards than her precious (maybe not to her) children and her husband. Very weird obsession with responding to many inquiries with not useful information? Tres strange.

There's a difference between being sophisticated with broad horizons and being well socialized. <BR> <BR>I once had a long discussion with a friend who travels for a living, staying anywhere from a week to 6 months in various places outside the US. She said she sometimes thinks she travels as much as she does in order to avoid developing anything other than very superficial social attachments. She said she'd always felt a little bit of an outsider in her own "home" culture and society, so it doesn't bother her to spend time in other countries as an outsider there, as well. <BR> <BR>She has "good" friends all over the world, she says, but "best" friends nowhere. And that's comfortable for her. <BR> <BR>Is this socialized? Or avoiding being socialized? Just food for thought.