Obsessing about Rioja
May 26th, 2008, 11:08 AM
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Obsessing about Rioja
I am planning an 18 day trip to Northern Spain but beginning and ending in Madrid. Plan is to pick up car in Madrid and drive to Rioja area for first 3 days then move on to Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia. So far I've devoted about 90% of my time to planning the first 3 days in Rioja and it's beginning to obsess me.
I've been working most recently from the most up-to-date version of Maribel's guide to Rioja and hope that she (and anyone else) can help me with my "Rioja winery visit syndrome".
The statement in the latest guide which has me most concerned is in the section on winery do's and don'ts--Do not plan to purchase and taste without going on a tour of the facilities. Oof da. That was completely my plan and when I read on several websites (especially of the newest most architecturally interesting wineries) about tasting rooms, boutiques, and gift shops, and opening hours that went beyond the standard 11, 1 and 3 or 4 hours, I reasoned that I could do just that. Not so, huh?
Here's my dilemma. While we love wine, our real interest is architecture/design and the opportunity to photograph same. It kills my husband to spend an hour or more LISTENING to something when he could be SEEING (and of course picturing/photographing) instead. What we had hoped to do is drive to several of the more architecturally interesting new wineries, photo the exterior and possibly a bit of the entry/interior and what we supposed to be the continually open boutiques/gift shops, and tasting rooms--taste if permitted, and then move on--without committing ourselves to an hour or longer explanation of how wine is made (even if it's made a bit differently in each place)
Now, after reading Maribel's updated guide it sounds like at some places we won't even be able to get close enough to photo the exterior without an advance tour reservation, e.g. Juan Alcorta where you need to be registered to drive onto the property.
I don't want to be some kind of ugly tourist unwilling to devote countless hours to listening to each vinter describe his specific situation, but I also don't have a week or more to devote to this cause. Can we at least photo the outside of most of these places without committing to a full tour? Can we, for instance, see the interior of the new tasting room at Heredia, without a tour?
That's the big question. Any help, Maribel, others?
A few more specific questions also.
Maribel's guide update doesn't mention Darien outside of Logrono. It looks interesting. Any reason it's not included? Any problem with it?
Maribel, do I correctly interpret your guide to say that the ONLY way to see the interior of Santa Maria la Real in Najera is also by tour?
Also, I note no mention in your guide of Hotel Real Casona de los Amas in Azofra which is where we'll be staying while visiting Rioja. It's obviously not ideally situated for visiting the area (I chose it because it got us fairly close to the area while still affording DH a little less driving on the trip from Madrid) but is there anything wrong with it? It looked nice on the website and I'm stuck with it, having sent a 30% deposit. Now I'm starting to worry.
Finally, Maribel, your guides and your responses on this site and to my specific questions have been so helpful to me that I'd like to offer something in return. We leave June 5 for 18 days--Rioja, Santander, Ribidasella, Ribadeo, Santiago, San Vicente de la Mar, Madrid. DH is really an excellent photographer and if you'd like stills of anything in that area in particular for your guide, we'd be happy to be sure to get them and send you copies on our return. I'm also what my mother always called "a good little eater" and would be happy to check out any restaurants on our route that you've been wondering about. Just let us know and we'll try to schedule a meal and report back. We really appreciate all the help we've gotten from you.
I've been working most recently from the most up-to-date version of Maribel's guide to Rioja and hope that she (and anyone else) can help me with my "Rioja winery visit syndrome".
The statement in the latest guide which has me most concerned is in the section on winery do's and don'ts--Do not plan to purchase and taste without going on a tour of the facilities. Oof da. That was completely my plan and when I read on several websites (especially of the newest most architecturally interesting wineries) about tasting rooms, boutiques, and gift shops, and opening hours that went beyond the standard 11, 1 and 3 or 4 hours, I reasoned that I could do just that. Not so, huh?
Here's my dilemma. While we love wine, our real interest is architecture/design and the opportunity to photograph same. It kills my husband to spend an hour or more LISTENING to something when he could be SEEING (and of course picturing/photographing) instead. What we had hoped to do is drive to several of the more architecturally interesting new wineries, photo the exterior and possibly a bit of the entry/interior and what we supposed to be the continually open boutiques/gift shops, and tasting rooms--taste if permitted, and then move on--without committing ourselves to an hour or longer explanation of how wine is made (even if it's made a bit differently in each place)
Now, after reading Maribel's updated guide it sounds like at some places we won't even be able to get close enough to photo the exterior without an advance tour reservation, e.g. Juan Alcorta where you need to be registered to drive onto the property.
I don't want to be some kind of ugly tourist unwilling to devote countless hours to listening to each vinter describe his specific situation, but I also don't have a week or more to devote to this cause. Can we at least photo the outside of most of these places without committing to a full tour? Can we, for instance, see the interior of the new tasting room at Heredia, without a tour?
That's the big question. Any help, Maribel, others?
A few more specific questions also.
Maribel's guide update doesn't mention Darien outside of Logrono. It looks interesting. Any reason it's not included? Any problem with it?
Maribel, do I correctly interpret your guide to say that the ONLY way to see the interior of Santa Maria la Real in Najera is also by tour?
Also, I note no mention in your guide of Hotel Real Casona de los Amas in Azofra which is where we'll be staying while visiting Rioja. It's obviously not ideally situated for visiting the area (I chose it because it got us fairly close to the area while still affording DH a little less driving on the trip from Madrid) but is there anything wrong with it? It looked nice on the website and I'm stuck with it, having sent a 30% deposit. Now I'm starting to worry.
Finally, Maribel, your guides and your responses on this site and to my specific questions have been so helpful to me that I'd like to offer something in return. We leave June 5 for 18 days--Rioja, Santander, Ribidasella, Ribadeo, Santiago, San Vicente de la Mar, Madrid. DH is really an excellent photographer and if you'd like stills of anything in that area in particular for your guide, we'd be happy to be sure to get them and send you copies on our return. I'm also what my mother always called "a good little eater" and would be happy to check out any restaurants on our route that you've been wondering about. Just let us know and we'll try to schedule a meal and report back. We really appreciate all the help we've gotten from you.
May 26th, 2008, 11:18 AM
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Julie,
What a lovely offer! I'd love to see your photos and always welcome great photography to enhance my guides. And I'll later post a few restaurants for you that I haven't been able yet to "review", as I admire your superb reviewing skills!
Answers to questions will follow...
What a lovely offer! I'd love to see your photos and always welcome great photography to enhance my guides. And I'll later post a few restaurants for you that I haven't been able yet to "review", as I admire your superb reviewing skills!
Answers to questions will follow...
May 26th, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Two years ago we spent about two weeks in Northern Spain (never got to Madrid though) in the middle of a 35-day road trip around France & Spain (and we had made reservations only the first week and the last 3 nights as our itinerary was very fluid!). We were there in late September-early October and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. The scenery is gorgeous, the food and wine fantastic!
Do you speak Spanish? While we had meant to visit some wineries in Rioja, it was harvest season, and (for example) we witnessed a lot of cool activity in LaGuardia related to that. However it was SO busy we did not attempt a winery visit. Also, our Spanish is, frankly, just "Menu Spanish" (and our Basque is non-existent) so we felt at a true disadvantage.
My primary point though, is that it did not seem as easy to visit wineries in Spain as we've done in France, Italy, or South Africa. No signs on gates with hours posted or anything like that. I think the advice to follow IS to make a reservation for a tour, and perhaps your hotel can help with that, or you can contact someone from Maribel's guide.
We DID meet up with three American couples from Florida who were taking a well-planned 2-week winery tour that sounded fabulous -- but one was a wine distributor and they obviously had a lot of contacts. I don't remember anymore of the details, though as it was probably near midnight in a Pinxtos place in Pamplona when we met them. When they told us what they were doing, we said "Wow, we'd love to do that someday" and when we told them what we were doing they said "Wow, WE'd love to do that someday!"
You will love your trip. Drink a glass or three of some of the wonderful rose -- and be sure to order "fish soup" as it will be different every place you try it!
Do you speak Spanish? While we had meant to visit some wineries in Rioja, it was harvest season, and (for example) we witnessed a lot of cool activity in LaGuardia related to that. However it was SO busy we did not attempt a winery visit. Also, our Spanish is, frankly, just "Menu Spanish" (and our Basque is non-existent) so we felt at a true disadvantage.
My primary point though, is that it did not seem as easy to visit wineries in Spain as we've done in France, Italy, or South Africa. No signs on gates with hours posted or anything like that. I think the advice to follow IS to make a reservation for a tour, and perhaps your hotel can help with that, or you can contact someone from Maribel's guide.
We DID meet up with three American couples from Florida who were taking a well-planned 2-week winery tour that sounded fabulous -- but one was a wine distributor and they obviously had a lot of contacts. I don't remember anymore of the details, though as it was probably near midnight in a Pinxtos place in Pamplona when we met them. When they told us what they were doing, we said "Wow, we'd love to do that someday" and when we told them what we were doing they said "Wow, WE'd love to do that someday!"
You will love your trip. Drink a glass or three of some of the wonderful rose -- and be sure to order "fish soup" as it will be different every place you try it!
May 26th, 2008, 12:41 PM
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There are a few bodegas that allow you into the gift shop, and some were you can pay to taste their wine (Dinastía Vivanco is one), but these would be the exception. And in the case of Vivanco, their offerings are not among the best. The Vinoteca La Ermita in Elciego has an excellent selection of Rioja wines by the glass if you want to taste some of the best the Rioja has to offer without having to tour the bodega at all, but it’s really not the same.
Beyond walking around the front of bodegas Ysios, most of the architecturally significant bodegas are closed off and not accessible without a tour. The newest wonders are built into the hillsides and the greatest architectural and engineering features of these structures must be viewed from within (Juan Alcorta, Viña Real, Baigorri), while others, like Finca Valpiedra and the Marques de Riscal are not approachable unless you have a scheduled tour.
The Hotel Real Casona de los Amas is perfectly fine, but it is a little further south than I would want to be, especially when most of the more interesting bodegas are closer to the Ebro, as are most of the better restaurants.
Beyond walking around the front of bodegas Ysios, most of the architecturally significant bodegas are closed off and not accessible without a tour. The newest wonders are built into the hillsides and the greatest architectural and engineering features of these structures must be viewed from within (Juan Alcorta, Viña Real, Baigorri), while others, like Finca Valpiedra and the Marques de Riscal are not approachable unless you have a scheduled tour.
The Hotel Real Casona de los Amas is perfectly fine, but it is a little further south than I would want to be, especially when most of the more interesting bodegas are closer to the Ebro, as are most of the better restaurants.
May 26th, 2008, 12:43 PM
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But now, to those questions..
Julie, I was going to include the Casona de los Amas at Azofra (despite the uninspiring location) in my guide until I read the disappointing reviews. A friend who owns a Spanish travel agency tipped us off to it, but the reviews of Spaniards haven't been very solid and we haven't had the chance to inspect it. Also the location is not as scenic.
I try never to list a property I haven't thoroughly reviewed on my own or had a very trusted friend review. I try to be very picky, as I feel responsible and don't want to steer folks wrong. I'll do more digging and try to find more current reviews.
Darien didn't make it into my revised guide simply because I forgot! The guide concentrates on those btw the capital and Haro and it's one of those east of Logroño. . Thanks for the reminder. I shall add it to the list. You've done your research extremely well!
To see the interior of Santa María la Real in Nájera, simply buy your entrance ticket at the booth outside, and don't join the tour in progress, particularly since it's only given in Spanish. We both wandered away from the tour, wanting to explore the church at leisure.
I added the "do's and dont's" at the urging of my husband. He thinks that visitors used to touring in Napa and Sonoma will approach the Rioja in the same way. The experience in the Rioja is vastly different. To get to the "fun stuff", you must go through the obligatory hr. long tour. They are "no nonsense" business operations not set up for mass tourism with boutiques open long hrs. It's a staffing issue more than anything else.
As you note, at Juan Alcorta you must be buzzed in at the gate.
And the wineries are much more interested in showcasing and explaining their stunning facilities, especially those designed by the Pritzker-prize winning, ultra famous architects and FAR less interested in actually selling their wares! In fact, some don't even point you to the gift shop after the tour (Viña Real, Ysios) and some shops are only staffed after the tour ends, for the participants (Baigorri and the above).
At Baigorri you could arrive at the appointed tour hr. (if you arrive btw tours, there won't be anyone available to open the door), you could ask if you could just go down & purchase at the wine desk downstairs, which is located next to the offices. Someone might be able to accommodate you. They've very nice. You can certainly snap all the pics you want of the building, as it's right on the highway.
After our Muga tour (Muga does have a little shop independent of the tour), we were headed to see the Zaha Hadid pavillon at López de Heredia, but it had already closed. L de H keeps very tight hours, closing at noon. So, I can't give you a definite answer on that one. But if you arrive during operating hrs. you can certainly photograph it from outside, as you can all the architecturally stunning wineries, except for J. Alcorta.
The major exception to the above rule
is Marqués de Riscal. In its new City of Wine it has opened a purpose-built pavilion consisting of wine/gourmet food shop, wine bar and café that keeps extended hours and is open to all. We stopped by on Easter Sunday for a glass and bite and to make our winery tour reservations. And once there you are in the middle of the Gehry complex with the hotel looming right in front of you, so plenty of great photo ops, also from the top of the village of Elciego.
Also we have both had drinks in bar and have had lunch at the Paniego restaurant without a tour reservation. The soaring dining room has a small seating capacity, so you'd want to make reservations several days in advance.
Another fine exception is the Dinastía Vivanco Museum, which is an absolute DO NOT MISS. We've actually never toured the winery, because their wines aren't our favorites. We've gone to tour the museum (finest wine museum in Europe, if not the world), or just to shop in its tasteful boutique or to lunch in the restaurant (reservations only) overlooking the vineyards. And as you see in my guide, the Vivanco museum keeps long hrs. And what a stunning setting!
And you'll want to drive up to the tiny, charming village of Briones itself for photo ops of the complex, to peek in at the enormous church and to pick up an item or two (handwoven blanket from Ezcaray?) from Vino Tentación.
So, from the top of Briones you can get fantastic photos of Vivanco and the Sierra de Cantabrai, you can do as much of the inside of Vivanco as you choose, ditto to M de Riscal, and you can drive up to Viña Real for photos without going in for the tour.
Forget Juan Alcorta-besides, it's nearly impossible to find!
Haro is great for photos and for wine purchases on the square and the Barrio de la Estación area is chock-a-block with venerable wineries. You can walk from one to another to get some great camera shots.
And Laguardia is a scenically medieval as they come! Stop at Mayor de Migueloa at the tapas bar with ancient wine press below the inn-entrance on the street behind it, buy goodies at Arburi, see the fabulous, amazingly well preserved polychromed wood portico of the church, walk around the Collado, the park at the end of the walled town for spectacular view of the vineyards-the whole town is a superb photo op.
Well, I'll stop for now. Hope, Julie, that the above has answered some of your questions, and feel free to send more this way!
Julie, I was going to include the Casona de los Amas at Azofra (despite the uninspiring location) in my guide until I read the disappointing reviews. A friend who owns a Spanish travel agency tipped us off to it, but the reviews of Spaniards haven't been very solid and we haven't had the chance to inspect it. Also the location is not as scenic.
I try never to list a property I haven't thoroughly reviewed on my own or had a very trusted friend review. I try to be very picky, as I feel responsible and don't want to steer folks wrong. I'll do more digging and try to find more current reviews.
Darien didn't make it into my revised guide simply because I forgot! The guide concentrates on those btw the capital and Haro and it's one of those east of Logroño. . Thanks for the reminder. I shall add it to the list. You've done your research extremely well!
To see the interior of Santa María la Real in Nájera, simply buy your entrance ticket at the booth outside, and don't join the tour in progress, particularly since it's only given in Spanish. We both wandered away from the tour, wanting to explore the church at leisure.
I added the "do's and dont's" at the urging of my husband. He thinks that visitors used to touring in Napa and Sonoma will approach the Rioja in the same way. The experience in the Rioja is vastly different. To get to the "fun stuff", you must go through the obligatory hr. long tour. They are "no nonsense" business operations not set up for mass tourism with boutiques open long hrs. It's a staffing issue more than anything else.
As you note, at Juan Alcorta you must be buzzed in at the gate.
And the wineries are much more interested in showcasing and explaining their stunning facilities, especially those designed by the Pritzker-prize winning, ultra famous architects and FAR less interested in actually selling their wares! In fact, some don't even point you to the gift shop after the tour (Viña Real, Ysios) and some shops are only staffed after the tour ends, for the participants (Baigorri and the above).
At Baigorri you could arrive at the appointed tour hr. (if you arrive btw tours, there won't be anyone available to open the door), you could ask if you could just go down & purchase at the wine desk downstairs, which is located next to the offices. Someone might be able to accommodate you. They've very nice. You can certainly snap all the pics you want of the building, as it's right on the highway.
After our Muga tour (Muga does have a little shop independent of the tour), we were headed to see the Zaha Hadid pavillon at López de Heredia, but it had already closed. L de H keeps very tight hours, closing at noon. So, I can't give you a definite answer on that one. But if you arrive during operating hrs. you can certainly photograph it from outside, as you can all the architecturally stunning wineries, except for J. Alcorta.
The major exception to the above rule
is Marqués de Riscal. In its new City of Wine it has opened a purpose-built pavilion consisting of wine/gourmet food shop, wine bar and café that keeps extended hours and is open to all. We stopped by on Easter Sunday for a glass and bite and to make our winery tour reservations. And once there you are in the middle of the Gehry complex with the hotel looming right in front of you, so plenty of great photo ops, also from the top of the village of Elciego.
Also we have both had drinks in bar and have had lunch at the Paniego restaurant without a tour reservation. The soaring dining room has a small seating capacity, so you'd want to make reservations several days in advance.
Another fine exception is the Dinastía Vivanco Museum, which is an absolute DO NOT MISS. We've actually never toured the winery, because their wines aren't our favorites. We've gone to tour the museum (finest wine museum in Europe, if not the world), or just to shop in its tasteful boutique or to lunch in the restaurant (reservations only) overlooking the vineyards. And as you see in my guide, the Vivanco museum keeps long hrs. And what a stunning setting!
And you'll want to drive up to the tiny, charming village of Briones itself for photo ops of the complex, to peek in at the enormous church and to pick up an item or two (handwoven blanket from Ezcaray?) from Vino Tentación.
So, from the top of Briones you can get fantastic photos of Vivanco and the Sierra de Cantabrai, you can do as much of the inside of Vivanco as you choose, ditto to M de Riscal, and you can drive up to Viña Real for photos without going in for the tour.
Forget Juan Alcorta-besides, it's nearly impossible to find!
Haro is great for photos and for wine purchases on the square and the Barrio de la Estación area is chock-a-block with venerable wineries. You can walk from one to another to get some great camera shots.
And Laguardia is a scenically medieval as they come! Stop at Mayor de Migueloa at the tapas bar with ancient wine press below the inn-entrance on the street behind it, buy goodies at Arburi, see the fabulous, amazingly well preserved polychromed wood portico of the church, walk around the Collado, the park at the end of the walled town for spectacular view of the vineyards-the whole town is a superb photo op.
Well, I'll stop for now. Hope, Julie, that the above has answered some of your questions, and feel free to send more this way!
May 26th, 2008, 12:49 PM
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And yes, while in Elciego, don't forget to drive up to the village for a wine or cheese platter at the Enoteca La Ermita right on the square, as robert notes. It's a great little place to pick up gourmet treats, especially their very, very, very fine olive oil from Mendavia, Navarra. And the wine prices are quite good. We took our friends and they bought up a storm and loved the low prices of their wines by the glass!
May 26th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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We have spent a great deal of time in Spain and I have had over 2 dozen photographic exhibits and the best shots for me are those that are unplanned.
Becasue I am a computer ignoramus, i can figure out to transfer many shots, Here are three taken in Galicia just a few years ago.
http://pictures.aol.com/ap/slideshow...nfo=&user=
Becasue I am a computer ignoramus, i can figure out to transfer many shots, Here are three taken in Galicia just a few years ago.
http://pictures.aol.com/ap/slideshow...nfo=&user=
May 26th, 2008, 01:49 PM
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Aduchamp,
I'm having trouble accessing your photos, which I'm sure are gorgeous, and I'd love to see.
Can you help me out?
Julie,
I've just reviewed the Trip Advisor comments on the Real Casona de las Amas; the Spanish one, written in April, was particularly negative. Although it's now a member of Tablet and Epoque hotels, the TA reviews do give me real, real pause.
I also did check booking.com, and reviews there in Spanish written in '07 were more positive, particularly of the staff. And there's one positive review on hotelsearch.com plus another on littlehotelsofspain.co.uk so there have been some satisfied guests. No reviews as yet on toprural.com The hotel critic of El Correo Digital did give it a review upon its opening, called it a "haven of peace".
I'm having trouble accessing your photos, which I'm sure are gorgeous, and I'd love to see.
Can you help me out?
Julie,
I've just reviewed the Trip Advisor comments on the Real Casona de las Amas; the Spanish one, written in April, was particularly negative. Although it's now a member of Tablet and Epoque hotels, the TA reviews do give me real, real pause.
I also did check booking.com, and reviews there in Spanish written in '07 were more positive, particularly of the staff. And there's one positive review on hotelsearch.com plus another on littlehotelsofspain.co.uk so there have been some satisfied guests. No reviews as yet on toprural.com The hotel critic of El Correo Digital did give it a review upon its opening, called it a "haven of peace".
May 26th, 2008, 01:54 PM
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Becasue I am a computer ignoramus, i can figure out to transfer many shots, Here are three taken in Galicia just a few years ago.
I am also an ignoramus at proof reading.
should read-I cannot figure out how to transfer many pictures.
The first picture:
Taken at the Costa de la Muerte (or Costa da Morte in Gallego) near where the oiler Prestige sank
The second is an horreo. This is used to score grain and other things. It is on stilts so vermin cannot enter. On the top is usually a cross and phallus symbol.
The third is a small valley near the farm where my father-in-law was born.
I am also an ignoramus at proof reading.
should read-I cannot figure out how to transfer many pictures.
The first picture:
Taken at the Costa de la Muerte (or Costa da Morte in Gallego) near where the oiler Prestige sank
The second is an horreo. This is used to score grain and other things. It is on stilts so vermin cannot enter. On the top is usually a cross and phallus symbol.
The third is a small valley near the farm where my father-in-law was born.
May 27th, 2008, 04:34 AM
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Thank you all so much. I feel better knowing all this. I'm digesting it and recasting my plan for the three days--but actually not by too much. I was already planning to actually visit Vivanca and to try to schedule lunch at Riscal. (I'm calling today) Will probably do an actual tour on Sunday morning--possibly at Darien since we intend to go to Logrono for tapas lunch that day. In between we'll fill in with driving about to see as much of the exteriors as we can view and then content ourselves with the scenic towns.
As for the hotel, as I said, it's set unless I'm willing to lose my 30% deposit, so I'll consider it a reporting experiment and get back to you and to Trip Advisor after I've stayed there. at least at this point it appears reviews are "mixed" That's better than all bad. Thanks Maribel for reading those in Spanish. I'd thought to babelfish them but that's a pretty long hard slog and not always understandable after you've done all the work. I appreciate your doing that. I look forward to the restaurants you may "assign" me to review in exchange for all your service.
As for the hotel, as I said, it's set unless I'm willing to lose my 30% deposit, so I'll consider it a reporting experiment and get back to you and to Trip Advisor after I've stayed there. at least at this point it appears reviews are "mixed" That's better than all bad. Thanks Maribel for reading those in Spanish. I'd thought to babelfish them but that's a pretty long hard slog and not always understandable after you've done all the work. I appreciate your doing that. I look forward to the restaurants you may "assign" me to review in exchange for all your service.
May 27th, 2008, 04:48 AM
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Any info about taking pictures when you take the tours? Is it generally permitted? Any tours where it's specifically prohibited, etc? I'd hate to get DH into a one hour tour where the first explanation is about how photography is not allowed.
May 27th, 2008, 05:10 AM
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I had no trouble taking pictures on any of the tours I was on.
I have to say that I didn't really care for the whole experience in Rioja. As strange as it may seem, the whole thing was much more formal than what you have in the US, even in Napa. All the appointments, and being forced to go through yet another tour is just not that much fun to me. I much prefer driving on my own and popping into whatever winery catches my eye, tasting some wines and chatting with the folks working there. I certainly don't need to see another barrel room or grape press.
If I had to choose one winery, though, it would be Muga. Very good wine and probably the most interesting tour, if only because they make barrels on site. I was a bit underwhelmed by the Riscal tour and the Riscal wines. The hotel, though was pretty nice.
I have to say that I didn't really care for the whole experience in Rioja. As strange as it may seem, the whole thing was much more formal than what you have in the US, even in Napa. All the appointments, and being forced to go through yet another tour is just not that much fun to me. I much prefer driving on my own and popping into whatever winery catches my eye, tasting some wines and chatting with the folks working there. I certainly don't need to see another barrel room or grape press.
If I had to choose one winery, though, it would be Muga. Very good wine and probably the most interesting tour, if only because they make barrels on site. I was a bit underwhelmed by the Riscal tour and the Riscal wines. The hotel, though was pretty nice.
May 27th, 2008, 07:14 AM
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You can take photographs at all of the bodegas. The only thing they usually ask is that you do not to take video without getting permission first. You should also ask for permission to take a photograph of any of the employees. Most will say yes without any problem, but it's a simple matter of courtesy.
travelgourmet, There is a major cultural difference between Spain and California when it comes to making wine, as well as other matters. In California, for the most part, it's simply a business. In Spain it's their life and the employees are part of their family. They are also proud of how they produce their wines and want to share the experience with you. Regardless of how many bodegas you visit in Spain, you will find next bodegas personality different from the last.
Also, bodegas in Spain have no problem selling their product. The tour and tasting is all about introducing you to their own particular style of wine, not to sell you a few cases as they do in California and even France.
The reason you didn’t enjoy the Riscal wines was that they served you the younger wines. Riscal wines are produced in the Bordeaux style and need to be aged several years in the bottle before they reach their peak. They should also be decanted for 20 minutes or so before serving.
travelgourmet, There is a major cultural difference between Spain and California when it comes to making wine, as well as other matters. In California, for the most part, it's simply a business. In Spain it's their life and the employees are part of their family. They are also proud of how they produce their wines and want to share the experience with you. Regardless of how many bodegas you visit in Spain, you will find next bodegas personality different from the last.
Also, bodegas in Spain have no problem selling their product. The tour and tasting is all about introducing you to their own particular style of wine, not to sell you a few cases as they do in California and even France.
The reason you didn’t enjoy the Riscal wines was that they served you the younger wines. Riscal wines are produced in the Bordeaux style and need to be aged several years in the bottle before they reach their peak. They should also be decanted for 20 minutes or so before serving.
May 27th, 2008, 08:30 AM
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Robert - All I can say is that I think you are waaaay off in your characterization of the US wine-making scene versus the Spanish one. Most of the wineries in Napa are small and run by people with a deep passion about the wine. Sonoma is even more laid back and small-scale, as is Paso Robles. And Oregon is perhaps my favorite, with fantastic Pinots and exceptionally friendly people.
Indeed, a place like Riscal is a significantly slicker and more commercial operation than virtually all of the Napa wineries. Riscal is not some quaint, family business, it is a major mass-market producer that exports 50k cases of its Reserve Rioja to the US, every year. And this isn't even their "supermarket" wine. They are basically a Spanish Mondavi, with the exception that they don't have any wines with the reputation of Mondavi's Reserve Cabs.
And I'm fully aware that the standard retort when criticizing some European wines on this board is to make claims about aging or style or whatever. But there is a difference between tasting a wine and saying, "it needs some more time" and saying "this is just not a very good wine." I know when to say the former and when to say the latter. And I also know that every winery claims to use French methods and that no amount of methods will make Tempranillo-based, American oak-aged Riojas that much more similar to the Cab-dominated, French-oaked Bordeauxs than a Napa Cab.
The Riscal reds (excepting the Baron de Chirel) are just not very good, with the 2002 Riserva garnering this review from Wine Spectator: <i>"Bitter gamy and vegetal flavors fight through astringent tannins in this lean red."</i> Wish I had read this review before I committed to the tour, as this was the vintage being served when I went, but my tasting notes were pretty consistent. Even the Baron de Chirel is not as special as the winery and the price would like to make it seem. In fairness, at less than $10, the 1860 is pretty decent, but I don't go to Napa to taste the supermarket stuff, and I was disappointed that this is what you are served at too many places in Rioja.
I stand by my recommendation to skip the Riscal tour, unless you have plenty of time. Take pictures or stay or eat at the hotel, but when they spend as much time showing you the model of the hotel or the structural engineering of the barrel room as anything related to the wine, I think it tells you who (or what) the real star is.
Indeed, a place like Riscal is a significantly slicker and more commercial operation than virtually all of the Napa wineries. Riscal is not some quaint, family business, it is a major mass-market producer that exports 50k cases of its Reserve Rioja to the US, every year. And this isn't even their "supermarket" wine. They are basically a Spanish Mondavi, with the exception that they don't have any wines with the reputation of Mondavi's Reserve Cabs.
And I'm fully aware that the standard retort when criticizing some European wines on this board is to make claims about aging or style or whatever. But there is a difference between tasting a wine and saying, "it needs some more time" and saying "this is just not a very good wine." I know when to say the former and when to say the latter. And I also know that every winery claims to use French methods and that no amount of methods will make Tempranillo-based, American oak-aged Riojas that much more similar to the Cab-dominated, French-oaked Bordeauxs than a Napa Cab.
The Riscal reds (excepting the Baron de Chirel) are just not very good, with the 2002 Riserva garnering this review from Wine Spectator: <i>"Bitter gamy and vegetal flavors fight through astringent tannins in this lean red."</i> Wish I had read this review before I committed to the tour, as this was the vintage being served when I went, but my tasting notes were pretty consistent. Even the Baron de Chirel is not as special as the winery and the price would like to make it seem. In fairness, at less than $10, the 1860 is pretty decent, but I don't go to Napa to taste the supermarket stuff, and I was disappointed that this is what you are served at too many places in Rioja.
I stand by my recommendation to skip the Riscal tour, unless you have plenty of time. Take pictures or stay or eat at the hotel, but when they spend as much time showing you the model of the hotel or the structural engineering of the barrel room as anything related to the wine, I think it tells you who (or what) the real star is.
May 27th, 2008, 09:20 AM
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Julie, if you are into visiting bodegas then when you visit Galicia maybe you should visit two regions here. One the Rias Baixas for a good crisp white wine and where I live the Ribeira Sacrá for a good red wine.
Whilst on a visit to Galicia you should see Santiago it is not all of Galicia as we have so much more to offer.
I too cannot access the photos of Aduchamp1.
Whilst on a visit to Galicia you should see Santiago it is not all of Galicia as we have so much more to offer.
I too cannot access the photos of Aduchamp1.
May 27th, 2008, 10:28 AM
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Please try this one and if does not work, please tell me.
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/aduchamp1
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/aduchamp1
May 27th, 2008, 10:38 AM
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Hi Julie,
I think your plan of a tapas lunch in Logroño at the bars I listed in your other thread followed by a winery tour makes good sense on Sunday. The 4:30 tour at Darien would work well for you.
If it doesn't work, there is the Juan Alcorta option. It does have a Sun. tour at 11, again by appointment, and I have tried to give some directions to it in my Rioja guide. We were first taken at night by the Rioja Tourist Board. When we later tried to find in on our own during the day, it presented a real challenge. It's at the southwest side of the city, beyond the city limits.
Another Sun. option would be the very traditional, small, French chateau style winery, Bodegas Amézola de la Mora in Toprremontalbo, right off the Briones-Logroño highway, on the south side. Its aging cellars date from 1816. It's open Sun. afternoon and has online booking. www.bodegasamezola.net
As to Marqués de Riscal, I've experienced the whole package, in its individual parts. We know the marketing director and have a friend who works in the bar.
At Easter I took friends on the English 90 min. tour with tasting (2 pours-one very common white Rueda, the second a red reserva, Barón de Chirel).
I'va also just stopped by the new pavilion to shop, have a glass of wine or plate of chorizo at the bar and nothing more.
I've toured the hotel with the marketing director, seen the Gehry suite (which he doesn't stay in, BTW) and toured the Caudalie spa facilities, which are now open to non-hotel guests for treatment packages (quite pricey, as you can imagine).
I've dined in the Francis Paniego supervised restaurant for dinner, which for me was the most enjoyable experience, even though we were there right after it had opened, during a holiday wkd. when it was swamped both with families and with reporters. If you don't plan to get down to Echaurren in Ezcaray, this would give you a chance to sample Paniego's cuisine. His chef at Riscal is quite good.
So, I would say, do at Marqués de Riscal whatever most appeals to you.
Another winery option very near Azofra which opens "Napa-style", in the sense that you can go for a tasting or purchase without taking a tour, is
David Moreno. The Rioja Tourist Board included this one in their itinerary for us. Again, open daily.
www.davidmoreno.es
I was going to suggest changing your hotel to the Hospedería Señorío de Casalarreina, just above Santo Domingo de la Calzada and a member of the new boutique group "Hoteles Divinos de la Rioja", but I completely, truly understand your not wanting to forgo that 30% deposit.
When you arrive at the Real Casona you might want to mention that you've read the review of the hotel on El Correo Digital (Bilbao newspaper). Mention of this might bring a warmer welcome and more attention service during your stay.
Here's the review, in Spanish:
http://tinyurl.com/6jtdab
Hope, as always, that the above info helps you to enjoy your stay even more!
I think your plan of a tapas lunch in Logroño at the bars I listed in your other thread followed by a winery tour makes good sense on Sunday. The 4:30 tour at Darien would work well for you.
If it doesn't work, there is the Juan Alcorta option. It does have a Sun. tour at 11, again by appointment, and I have tried to give some directions to it in my Rioja guide. We were first taken at night by the Rioja Tourist Board. When we later tried to find in on our own during the day, it presented a real challenge. It's at the southwest side of the city, beyond the city limits.
Another Sun. option would be the very traditional, small, French chateau style winery, Bodegas Amézola de la Mora in Toprremontalbo, right off the Briones-Logroño highway, on the south side. Its aging cellars date from 1816. It's open Sun. afternoon and has online booking. www.bodegasamezola.net
As to Marqués de Riscal, I've experienced the whole package, in its individual parts. We know the marketing director and have a friend who works in the bar.
At Easter I took friends on the English 90 min. tour with tasting (2 pours-one very common white Rueda, the second a red reserva, Barón de Chirel).
I'va also just stopped by the new pavilion to shop, have a glass of wine or plate of chorizo at the bar and nothing more.
I've toured the hotel with the marketing director, seen the Gehry suite (which he doesn't stay in, BTW) and toured the Caudalie spa facilities, which are now open to non-hotel guests for treatment packages (quite pricey, as you can imagine).
I've dined in the Francis Paniego supervised restaurant for dinner, which for me was the most enjoyable experience, even though we were there right after it had opened, during a holiday wkd. when it was swamped both with families and with reporters. If you don't plan to get down to Echaurren in Ezcaray, this would give you a chance to sample Paniego's cuisine. His chef at Riscal is quite good.
So, I would say, do at Marqués de Riscal whatever most appeals to you.
Another winery option very near Azofra which opens "Napa-style", in the sense that you can go for a tasting or purchase without taking a tour, is
David Moreno. The Rioja Tourist Board included this one in their itinerary for us. Again, open daily.
www.davidmoreno.es
I was going to suggest changing your hotel to the Hospedería Señorío de Casalarreina, just above Santo Domingo de la Calzada and a member of the new boutique group "Hoteles Divinos de la Rioja", but I completely, truly understand your not wanting to forgo that 30% deposit.
When you arrive at the Real Casona you might want to mention that you've read the review of the hotel on El Correo Digital (Bilbao newspaper). Mention of this might bring a warmer welcome and more attention service during your stay.
Here's the review, in Spanish:
http://tinyurl.com/6jtdab
Hope, as always, that the above info helps you to enjoy your stay even more!
May 27th, 2008, 11:10 AM
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Julie,
Your "assignment", if you should accept it, would be to try out Restaurante Arbidel in Ribadesella (we've already talked about this one), or in Santander, ONE of the following, all members of the Calidad de Cantabria hotel-restaurant group, and all located in the Puerto Chico marina area:
Bar del Puerto (has a Campsa sun, this one for seafood)
La Mulata
El Serbal (1 Campsa sun and makes The Best of Spanish Gastronomy)
La Bombi
Or if you're staying at El Sardinero beach, our Santander friends rave about La Cúpula at the Hotel Río (formerly Rhin).
The above are the Calidad Cantabria members I haven't reviewed yet. And we find the Campsa guide Spain-Portugal more dependable, more "on the money" with restaurants than the Michelin red. Their sun, "sol", is the equivalent of a Michelin star.
www.calidadcantabria.com
tapas in Santander at Mesón Rampalay, Bodega de la Cigaleña, Cañadío are great.
And in San Vicente de la Barquera (if you have a night in the vicinity?), I think you'll like El Marinero, right on the main drag, Avda. Generalisimo 23. We chose it over the more "known" Maruja, Boga-Boga and Augusto, because it looked less tired and with more reasonable prices. We weren't disappointed. Only locals.
Thanks!
Your "assignment", if you should accept it, would be to try out Restaurante Arbidel in Ribadesella (we've already talked about this one), or in Santander, ONE of the following, all members of the Calidad de Cantabria hotel-restaurant group, and all located in the Puerto Chico marina area:
Bar del Puerto (has a Campsa sun, this one for seafood)
La Mulata
El Serbal (1 Campsa sun and makes The Best of Spanish Gastronomy)
La Bombi
Or if you're staying at El Sardinero beach, our Santander friends rave about La Cúpula at the Hotel Río (formerly Rhin).
The above are the Calidad Cantabria members I haven't reviewed yet. And we find the Campsa guide Spain-Portugal more dependable, more "on the money" with restaurants than the Michelin red. Their sun, "sol", is the equivalent of a Michelin star.
www.calidadcantabria.com
tapas in Santander at Mesón Rampalay, Bodega de la Cigaleña, Cañadío are great.
And in San Vicente de la Barquera (if you have a night in the vicinity?), I think you'll like El Marinero, right on the main drag, Avda. Generalisimo 23. We chose it over the more "known" Maruja, Boga-Boga and Augusto, because it looked less tired and with more reasonable prices. We weren't disappointed. Only locals.
Thanks!
May 27th, 2008, 12:06 PM
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Robert2533, Thanks for the tips on filming etiquette for the Spanish wineries. We'll be careful to request permission. Actually, always a good idea.
Maribel, I'll be able to add one more aspect of the Riscal for you since we'll be having lunch at the 1860 restaurant on Sunday June 8. They didn't have availability on Saturday and not at the gourmet dining room at all while we're there so that's what we wound up with. I figured it would at least get me access to see the hotel. That also means that we'll be doing the Logrono tapas crawl on Saturday rather than Sunday so I'm working on a revamp of my overall itinerary.
Thanks for the list of restaurants to check out along our route. We should be able to get to several of them and I'll try to take good notes so I can do a report worthy of all the help you've given us.
Maribel, I'll be able to add one more aspect of the Riscal for you since we'll be having lunch at the 1860 restaurant on Sunday June 8. They didn't have availability on Saturday and not at the gourmet dining room at all while we're there so that's what we wound up with. I figured it would at least get me access to see the hotel. That also means that we'll be doing the Logrono tapas crawl on Saturday rather than Sunday so I'm working on a revamp of my overall itinerary.
Thanks for the list of restaurants to check out along our route. We should be able to get to several of them and I'll try to take good notes so I can do a report worthy of all the help you've given us.
