Non-Travelers
Feb 24th, 2006, 05:24 PM
#102
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#101...good thread...Guy, I don't hold you in contempt for even hinting at contemptuosness...I suppose it's just an honest wonderment on your part. I've thought about it over the years..probably more years that anyone else who has posted...I've been steadily traveling as an independent traveler for well over 55 years...I love it..my wife loves it equally well...so who cares why friends and neighbors don't travel!? It's crowded enough on airline flights!
"To each his own" as the saying goes..or as in Italy .."saucisse his own"..
Keep on truckin' Guy..so shall I.
Stu T.
"To each his own" as the saying goes..or as in Italy .."saucisse his own"..
Keep on truckin' Guy..so shall I.
Stu T.
Feb 24th, 2006, 10:12 PM
#103
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I didn't become a travel fanatic until I was in my '50's. My first trip out of the country was to France, starting at Paris, then driving to the coast at Honfleur, down te coast of Normandy, accross the Loire and back up to Paris.
That trip absolutely knocked my socks off. I simply had no idea until then what a beautiful and fascinating country France was. Later would come England, Wales, Germany, Italy, Spain, New York City, and, for heaven's sake, Charleston, South Carolina - a marvelous place. NO IDEA! For a long time after, I puzzled over what had been my impediment to travel, why had I had no interest in it previously?
First of all, I didn't have the internet back in those pre-travel days, so I had no idea that travel could be affordable. I would get a knot in my stomach imagining the wad of money it would take.
Secondly, I had not had particularly happy experience with travel, conjuring up memories of pedal-to-the-medal blasts down I-5 to southern California ,with my then-husband, punctuated by stops at Denney's for a hurried meal, or at a sterile motel along the freeway to sleep as a last resort when we started seeing double from fatigue. For many people, prior inexperience with joyful, truly free and creative travel keeps them reluctant, as it did me. It was also, importantly, about a lack of control.
I sympathize with you over starting a thread you'd like nothing better than to obliterate at some point during a heated dialog. I've done that myself. (Try criticizing Spanish cuisine sometime, if you think the discussion was hot here.) The cure for me was to eventually swear off Fodors for a few days until the thread inevitably sunk mercifully to the bottom of the forum.
See you on the road!
That trip absolutely knocked my socks off. I simply had no idea until then what a beautiful and fascinating country France was. Later would come England, Wales, Germany, Italy, Spain, New York City, and, for heaven's sake, Charleston, South Carolina - a marvelous place. NO IDEA! For a long time after, I puzzled over what had been my impediment to travel, why had I had no interest in it previously?
First of all, I didn't have the internet back in those pre-travel days, so I had no idea that travel could be affordable. I would get a knot in my stomach imagining the wad of money it would take.
Secondly, I had not had particularly happy experience with travel, conjuring up memories of pedal-to-the-medal blasts down I-5 to southern California ,with my then-husband, punctuated by stops at Denney's for a hurried meal, or at a sterile motel along the freeway to sleep as a last resort when we started seeing double from fatigue. For many people, prior inexperience with joyful, truly free and creative travel keeps them reluctant, as it did me. It was also, importantly, about a lack of control.
I sympathize with you over starting a thread you'd like nothing better than to obliterate at some point during a heated dialog. I've done that myself. (Try criticizing Spanish cuisine sometime, if you think the discussion was hot here.) The cure for me was to eventually swear off Fodors for a few days until the thread inevitably sunk mercifully to the bottom of the forum.
See you on the road!
Feb 25th, 2006, 06:00 AM
#104
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MaryFran -- My Mom and Aunt are both in their 60s and in the past few years have finally gotten the travel bug. They've been on a cruise together, traveled to Mexico with one of my brothers, to Paris with me, and to New York to visit another brother, all in the past couple of years.
My Mom travelled a bit more when we were younger, but the big change I see is in my Aunt, who's whole world view is changing now that she's really seeing it.
They are traveling like crazy now just to try and get all they want to see in before they get too frail. Both have problem knees, but they still go. I say "better late than never!"
Jules
My Mom travelled a bit more when we were younger, but the big change I see is in my Aunt, who's whole world view is changing now that she's really seeing it.
They are traveling like crazy now just to try and get all they want to see in before they get too frail. Both have problem knees, but they still go. I say "better late than never!"
Jules
Feb 26th, 2006, 09:43 AM
#105
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I am enjoying reading everything on this thread. Guy - it is my experience that the people who spend money for show do go on vacation, but it's often not to places I would choose. Super expensive cruises, to Las Vegas, first class all the way, all-inclusive resorts where they put their children into the babysitting service all day, etc. I figure if more people traveled like that, there would be less people in the places that *I* want to go!
I do get baffled about what types of things can "set people off" like Guy's post obviously did. I recall a woman who posted a looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnggg trip report about traveling with her "friends" to Italy. She was very contemptious (sp?) of her friends, who apparently, among all of them, had no redeeming qualities. Everyone seemed to find the post funny and loved it. But poor Guy here says something similiar, making comments about people who travel differently than him, and all heck breaks loose.
And I have noticed, especially in certain travel magazines it's not OK to go "where everybody goes". Their philosophy is that you have to travel to most remote places or hike the most out of the way trails. I lost respect for one magazine when they recommended skipping Yosemite Valley b/c of the crowds. Yes, it is crowded, often maddeningly so, but to miss Yosemite Valley is to miss one of the most beautiful places on the planet. That's bad advice, (in my opinion, of course)!!
I do get baffled about what types of things can "set people off" like Guy's post obviously did. I recall a woman who posted a looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnggg trip report about traveling with her "friends" to Italy. She was very contemptious (sp?) of her friends, who apparently, among all of them, had no redeeming qualities. Everyone seemed to find the post funny and loved it. But poor Guy here says something similiar, making comments about people who travel differently than him, and all heck breaks loose.
And I have noticed, especially in certain travel magazines it's not OK to go "where everybody goes". Their philosophy is that you have to travel to most remote places or hike the most out of the way trails. I lost respect for one magazine when they recommended skipping Yosemite Valley b/c of the crowds. Yes, it is crowded, often maddeningly so, but to miss Yosemite Valley is to miss one of the most beautiful places on the planet. That's bad advice, (in my opinion, of course)!!
Feb 26th, 2006, 10:13 AM
#106
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Thanks, karens, for understanding my intent. (Although I must admit that every time I see this thread pop up, I give a little sigh...) I enjoyed your mentioning the extravagant Las Vegas vacations that so many people whom I know are into. It just sounds dreadful to me. Does it make the people who like to vacation this way BAD? Of course not, but it has very little to do with the type of vacation I like to take.
Feb 26th, 2006, 02:44 PM
#107
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Guy - I'm sorry to add more to this thread (esp. after your last post),but I am totally speechless that this thread has created the brew ha ha it has, after just finishing reading the "I can't believe I saw this..." thread. I can't recall when I've read more prejudiced statements in one place before, and apparently, it is great fun to say stuff like, "by far the worst are the Japanese". I didn't find that thread fun at all, but totally depressing.
Now I could understand pointing out the crazy things we've all seen (or unfortunately, did ourselves!), but the underlying biases and prejudices in so many of the posts I found disturbing.
I'm still trying to figure this out. It's bad for Guy question why some people don't travel, but it's totally fine to judge people b/c they are Japanese, or American or German? What am I missing here?!
Now I could understand pointing out the crazy things we've all seen (or unfortunately, did ourselves!), but the underlying biases and prejudices in so many of the posts I found disturbing.
I'm still trying to figure this out. It's bad for Guy question why some people don't travel, but it's totally fine to judge people b/c they are Japanese, or American or German? What am I missing here?!
Feb 26th, 2006, 03:00 PM
#108
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It was my use of "pity" and "contempt" that got people angry. They took me literally, and I can't really blame them.
As I pointed out in this thread, there was yet another thread ("Too many Americans"
full of national and ethnic stereotypes that seemed to garner less outcry than my, as one post-er called it, "honest wonderment."
As I pointed out in this thread, there was yet another thread ("Too many Americans"
full of national and ethnic stereotypes that seemed to garner less outcry than my, as one post-er called it, "honest wonderment."
Feb 26th, 2006, 03:34 PM
#109
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Jules 4je7 said:
"we all think that our choices are the best ones for us."
The trouble and discord comes when posters really are saying "we all think that our choices are the best for everyone else".
This occurs everytime a poster asks about a tour or visiting a number of places in a limited period of time.
Guy18's original post is the epitome of this kind of thinking. And I say that in spite of his/her numerous disclaimers.
"we all think that our choices are the best ones for us."
The trouble and discord comes when posters really are saying "we all think that our choices are the best for everyone else".
This occurs everytime a poster asks about a tour or visiting a number of places in a limited period of time.
Guy18's original post is the epitome of this kind of thinking. And I say that in spite of his/her numerous disclaimers.
Feb 26th, 2006, 04:51 PM
#110
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I know this post belongs more on the other thread, but I think the problem arises when we observe certain (usually negative) national characteristics - traits that a particular group may TEND to display more than another - and go on predict that ALL members of that group will behave according to one's stereotype. One is not necessarily prejudice (pre-judging), the other is.
I can't see what's wrong with reporting on an observed phenomenon as long as it's balanced comment. For example, Japanese people (in tour groups) may tend to display an unusual degree of insensitivity in certain situations. I've heard of this happening at the remains of the USS Arizona (?) at Pearl Harbor. At the same time, many Western tourists behave inappropriately in Buddhist temples in Asia. At the same time, the Japanese are almost invariably polite, courteous and helpful to visitors to their own country. If I can mention one I should be able to mention the other, as long as I'm not motivated by malice. It might even help to fix the problem.
An analogy - there's an ongoing debate in my country regarding the prevalence of certain types of crime within particular ethnic groups. It's all anecdotal, because statistics either aren't kept or if they are, aren't released. This is because some people believe that even talking about the subject may fan hostility towards those groups. Others claim that keeping us in ignorance is worse, because it prevents the identification of problems and solutions; even worse, it's counterproductive because it allows wild exaggerations of the problem to be broadcast by right-wing shock jocks and believed by those who know no better. I recognise that the former view has a grain of validity, but I hate having discussion stifled because it might offend somebody.
I'm offended every hour of the day by what's going on in the world. If my government was worried about offending me they'd have resigned years ago.
I can't see what's wrong with reporting on an observed phenomenon as long as it's balanced comment. For example, Japanese people (in tour groups) may tend to display an unusual degree of insensitivity in certain situations. I've heard of this happening at the remains of the USS Arizona (?) at Pearl Harbor. At the same time, many Western tourists behave inappropriately in Buddhist temples in Asia. At the same time, the Japanese are almost invariably polite, courteous and helpful to visitors to their own country. If I can mention one I should be able to mention the other, as long as I'm not motivated by malice. It might even help to fix the problem.
An analogy - there's an ongoing debate in my country regarding the prevalence of certain types of crime within particular ethnic groups. It's all anecdotal, because statistics either aren't kept or if they are, aren't released. This is because some people believe that even talking about the subject may fan hostility towards those groups. Others claim that keeping us in ignorance is worse, because it prevents the identification of problems and solutions; even worse, it's counterproductive because it allows wild exaggerations of the problem to be broadcast by right-wing shock jocks and believed by those who know no better. I recognise that the former view has a grain of validity, but I hate having discussion stifled because it might offend somebody.
I'm offended every hour of the day by what's going on in the world. If my government was worried about offending me they'd have resigned years ago.
Feb 26th, 2006, 10:41 PM
#112
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I really wish that I could live my everyday (non-travel) life in the same way I approach things when I am traveling... For example,
I'd have a much better attitude, I'd make the most out of every second, I'd be friendly, adventurous, and open-minded, I'd look for something special to appreciate in every situation, I'd be much more polite, I'd be quick to recognize how stupid it is to be upset about something trivial when after all, the important thing is that I'm in ________.
Seems like one of the things I like about traveling is that I become a much more decent and balanced person. Would be great if I could sustain that beyond my "vacation".
I'd have a much better attitude, I'd make the most out of every second, I'd be friendly, adventurous, and open-minded, I'd look for something special to appreciate in every situation, I'd be much more polite, I'd be quick to recognize how stupid it is to be upset about something trivial when after all, the important thing is that I'm in ________.
Seems like one of the things I like about traveling is that I become a much more decent and balanced person. Would be great if I could sustain that beyond my "vacation".
Feb 26th, 2006, 10:43 PM
#113
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"the Japanese are almost invariably polite, courteous and helpful to visitors to their own country"
Except, of course, to the extent that they post signs on their business establishments denying admittance or refusing service to non-Japanese. In most western countries that behavior would violate the law. In Japan it is apparently legal.
Except, of course, to the extent that they post signs on their business establishments denying admittance or refusing service to non-Japanese. In most western countries that behavior would violate the law. In Japan it is apparently legal.
Feb 27th, 2006, 02:35 AM
#115
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Interesting to me, when we first moved overseas, I expected to encounter the "Americans don't seem to leave their country, how silly/what a pity/how stupid" attitude here in Europe.
I've realized since moving here, though, that we are actually harder on Americans who don't travel than the Europeans I have met here.
The most common response I get when I mention the lack of travel to people here is: "There is so much to see and do in your country. It is perfectly understandable that people prefer to travel there." Evidently, the proximity and variety make this issue a no-brainer.
Personally, I'm glad to have this opportunity to live and travel here, but DH and I also took epic road trips in North America before we left. Many, many, many jewels on both sides of the Atlantic. When we are planning our family trips in the future, I know which continent we will explore first!
I've realized since moving here, though, that we are actually harder on Americans who don't travel than the Europeans I have met here.
The most common response I get when I mention the lack of travel to people here is: "There is so much to see and do in your country. It is perfectly understandable that people prefer to travel there." Evidently, the proximity and variety make this issue a no-brainer.
Personally, I'm glad to have this opportunity to live and travel here, but DH and I also took epic road trips in North America before we left. Many, many, many jewels on both sides of the Atlantic. When we are planning our family trips in the future, I know which continent we will explore first!
Feb 27th, 2006, 04:02 AM
#116
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Pity-Feeling of tenderness aroused by person's distress or suffering. Contempt-Act, mental attitude of despising. Despising-Look down upon. I can't feel pity for a Lexus owner. I envy them. I don't look down on those with unlimited funds. I envy them. I suspect that, that group daily live the life that I as poor traveller seek a few days of my year.
Feb 27th, 2006, 04:58 AM
#117
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You know, unlimited funds seems really fun and carefree, but every social situation has its own unique set of problems. So, saying that you envy their resources is just you analyzing your own problem set and thinking that they would disappear had you access to what they do. But then, other problems would arise and there you would go thinking "Ah, to be middle class. . ." The first time you travel with bodyguards, let me tell you, is a humbling experience.
Now, just to claire-ify, I am not of the insanely wealthy, but have had a few travel experiences of that nature because of who I am visiting. Not only did I return from those places without being able to say I had actually seen them, but I got a completely skewed view of what goes on there.
The food, though, was delicious.
Now, just to claire-ify, I am not of the insanely wealthy, but have had a few travel experiences of that nature because of who I am visiting. Not only did I return from those places without being able to say I had actually seen them, but I got a completely skewed view of what goes on there.
The food, though, was delicious.
Feb 27th, 2006, 07:29 AM
#120
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As a child, I grew up in NJ, about 5 miles from the George Washington Bridge, which was (to me) the entrance into NYC. My mother used to take us there to see the museums, the zoo, to go shopping at Macy's (and go to see their Thanksgiving Day Parade) among other things. She also took us on trips to Niagara Falls and Washington DC. We didn't go to many other places, because frankly, we were poor, and just didn't have the money to do it. But the concept of going places excited me, and I believe that's why I'm in the travel business to this day. One of the things that amazed me as a teenager, was that people I went to high school with had never, ever been into NYC...all of 5 miles away. When I'd ask them why...they'd say that "Oh, it's the CITY, and it's SO FAR AWAY...".
I came to the conclusion at that time, that there are some people who were meant to go (myself included), and there were some people who were meant to stay. It's not a thing we necessarily choose, it just is what we are.
I like to speculate that those of us with the traveling "gene" are some of the ones who in ancient times walked over the land bridge connecting (what is now) Russia (I think) and Alaska just to "see what's over there". Or walked south to get warmer (though how they knew that I haven't a clue) rather than stay in the cave to stay safe. I could no more stay home and be a non-traveler than I could breathe underwater without my SCUBA tank. It's who I am. It's who we (who participate on this site) are. We were meant to go. "They" were meant to stay. I figure it's just best to Let them.
I came to the conclusion at that time, that there are some people who were meant to go (myself included), and there were some people who were meant to stay. It's not a thing we necessarily choose, it just is what we are.
I like to speculate that those of us with the traveling "gene" are some of the ones who in ancient times walked over the land bridge connecting (what is now) Russia (I think) and Alaska just to "see what's over there". Or walked south to get warmer (though how they knew that I haven't a clue) rather than stay in the cave to stay safe. I could no more stay home and be a non-traveler than I could breathe underwater without my SCUBA tank. It's who I am. It's who we (who participate on this site) are. We were meant to go. "They" were meant to stay. I figure it's just best to Let them.
