Nantes - pronounce the 's' or no?
Apr 6th, 2005, 05:40 AM
#21
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OK ! First, let me smile to Nikki and Tedgale 
Bon, c'est fait !
Now, you must have noticed the presence of a vowel between the "t" and the "s" in NantEs, the pronunciation of which is the same in the plural of "les plantes", "les mantes (religieuses, lol)", etc.
About "Reims", "Sens", I think it's a problem of "euphonie"/euphony, pronouncing the "s" is easy after a consonant such as "m", "n" whereas it's not "harmonieux"/harmonious at all in "Tours"... I can't pronounce "TouRs", it's awful, and it corresponds to the pronunciation the common noun "les tours (du château)"...
Concerning "LeS Arcs", you make the liaison between the "s" of the plural of the definite article "leS" because it's is located before a vowel, the "A" in "Les Arcs", but you don't pronounce the "S" of the plural at the end of "Arcs", it's simply "imprononçable"/unpronounceable for a French mouth... When you say "Les Arcs 1600", you don't hear the s" at the end of "Arcs" and before the number "seize" (16) which starts with a consonant...
I must say that I have searched the web and the lessons provided by my American friend, Laura, on her web sites dedicated to the French language... So far, I have found nothing clear and logical concerning a possible rule for proper nouns... I'll ask Ken who is better than me at French, lol ! Humblement vôtre : Marie ;-)
Bon, c'est fait !Now, you must have noticed the presence of a vowel between the "t" and the "s" in NantEs, the pronunciation of which is the same in the plural of "les plantes", "les mantes (religieuses, lol)", etc.
About "Reims", "Sens", I think it's a problem of "euphonie"/euphony, pronouncing the "s" is easy after a consonant such as "m", "n" whereas it's not "harmonieux"/harmonious at all in "Tours"... I can't pronounce "TouRs", it's awful, and it corresponds to the pronunciation the common noun "les tours (du château)"...
Concerning "LeS Arcs", you make the liaison between the "s" of the plural of the definite article "leS" because it's is located before a vowel, the "A" in "Les Arcs", but you don't pronounce the "S" of the plural at the end of "Arcs", it's simply "imprononçable"/unpronounceable for a French mouth... When you say "Les Arcs 1600", you don't hear the s" at the end of "Arcs" and before the number "seize" (16) which starts with a consonant...
I must say that I have searched the web and the lessons provided by my American friend, Laura, on her web sites dedicated to the French language... So far, I have found nothing clear and logical concerning a possible rule for proper nouns... I'll ask Ken who is better than me at French, lol ! Humblement vôtre : Marie ;-)
Apr 6th, 2005, 06:19 AM
#22
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Marie, you obviously know much more about it than me. But you originally said "we don't pronounce the "s" at the end of "Nantes", "Tours", etc., thus, no "liaison" can be made between "Nantes" and a word starting with a vowel". But my point was that the 's' at the end of 'les' is not usually pronounced, but it does 'make a liaison' before a word beginning with a vowel such as 'Arcs'. (I am aware that the 's' at the end of 'Arcs' is not pronounced.) I guess it is again a question of euphony - i.e. it wouldn't sound good to say 'Les Arcs' without pronouncing the 's' at the end of 'Les'; but it is unnecessary after 'Nantes', even when followed by a vowel, because of the 'te' ? Although what about 'Tours' if followed by a vowel ?
Apr 6th, 2005, 06:58 AM
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<we don't pronounce the "s" at the end of "Nantes", "Tours", etc., thus, no "liaison" can be made between "Nantes" and a word starting with a vowel >
Marie knows there is no liaison after Tours or Nantes, and is trying to come up with a rule, but obviously all liaisons are made with consonants that are normally silent and a following vowel. (vous êtes, for example)
My best guess for a rule is that French doesn't want to alter the pronunciation of a proper noun, just as there is no liaison in "Jean est." (My phonetics book says there is no liaison after a rhythmic group or important word, and the "Jean est" is one example there.)
And, Marie, if you can say the word for bear (ours), you can say Tours with "s" pronounced! (But it's not right, of course)
Marie knows there is no liaison after Tours or Nantes, and is trying to come up with a rule, but obviously all liaisons are made with consonants that are normally silent and a following vowel. (vous êtes, for example)
My best guess for a rule is that French doesn't want to alter the pronunciation of a proper noun, just as there is no liaison in "Jean est." (My phonetics book says there is no liaison after a rhythmic group or important word, and the "Jean est" is one example there.)
And, Marie, if you can say the word for bear (ours), you can say Tours with "s" pronounced!
(But it's not right, of course)
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:03 AM
#24
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The "s" at the end of Nantes is definitely not pronounced. However, Intrepid is incorrect: there are a number of placenames in French that end in "s" where that letter is indeed pronounced. Sometimes it is a matter of some segments of the population pronouncing the "s" and some not. But that's not the case with Nantes, where the "s" is not pronounced.
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:19 AM
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I know this is very nerdy, but I'm gong to post it anyway.
There aren't many rules about pronouncing the final S on French place names. One rule might be that the final S isn't pronounced when the preceding sound (I mean sound, as distinguished from a written letter) is a consonant.
Here is a list of examples where the last pronounced sound of a town name is a consonant and the final S is is NOT pronounced. Remember, the E before the S is silent unless it has an accent on it, so it doesn't count:
Aigues-Mortes (neither S is pronounced)
Arles
Avranches
Bourges
Bruges (in Belgium)
Bruxelles (in Belgium)
Cahors
Cannes
Castres
Charleville-Mézières
Chartres
Flers
Fougères
Gisors
Loches
Londres (in the U.K.)
Lourdes
Mantes(-la-Jolie)
Martigues
Nantes
Naples (in Italy)
Nevers
Nîmes
Rennes
Sarcelles
Sarreguemines
Selles(-sur-Cher)
Sèvres
Tarbes
Thiers
Tours
Valenciennes
Valognes
Vannes
The only exception to the rule that I can think of off hand -- and some pronounce it with the final S while others pronounce it without -- is Salers (pronounced either sa-LEHR or sa-LEHRSS).
When the final written letter S immediately follows a pronounced vowel, there isn't really any rule about whether of not the S is pronounced. Most of the time, though, it is NOT pronounced. Think about Paris -- pronounced pah-REE in French.These are other examples (like Paree) where the final S is NOT pronounced. Remember, -in-, -en-, -an- are spellings for nasal vowels (no consonant pronounced) and -er- in they cases is pronounced -ay-:
(xxx)-les-Bains
Angers
Béziers
Carpentras
Challans
Coulommiers
Le Mans
Montargis
Moulins
Orléans
Paris
Pithiviers
Poitiers
Provins
Saint-Louis (in the US)
Salbris
Soissons
Thiviers
Tournus (locally, but many French people would pronounce the final S)
Versailles
Villiers
But there are many exceptions. In these names, the final S IS pronounced:
Alès
Dallas (in the US)
Gigondas
Los Angelès (in the US)
Lyons (-la-Forêt, in Normandy)
Mons (in Belgium)
Nyons
Reims
Senlis
Sens
By the way, if you pronounce the S, even on a word as common as Paris (pronouncing it pah-REESS), French people will understand you.
These are just a few examples...
About liaisons (as in "Nantes est une belle ville" -- you do NOT pronounce the S), the rule is that you NEVER make a liaison using the final consonant of a singular noun. For example, in 'le soldat inconnu' you would NEVER pronounce the T of 'soldat'.
You DO make a liaison with the final consonant of an adjective (or article) preceding a noun that starts with a vowel sound (Les-z-Arcs, les-z-hommes, or les beaux-z-arts, for example).
There aren't many rules about pronouncing the final S on French place names. One rule might be that the final S isn't pronounced when the preceding sound (I mean sound, as distinguished from a written letter) is a consonant.
Here is a list of examples where the last pronounced sound of a town name is a consonant and the final S is is NOT pronounced. Remember, the E before the S is silent unless it has an accent on it, so it doesn't count:
Aigues-Mortes (neither S is pronounced)
Arles
Avranches
Bourges
Bruges (in Belgium)
Bruxelles (in Belgium)
Cahors
Cannes
Castres
Charleville-Mézières
Chartres
Flers
Fougères
Gisors
Loches
Londres (in the U.K.)
Lourdes
Mantes(-la-Jolie)
Martigues
Nantes
Naples (in Italy)
Nevers
Nîmes
Rennes
Sarcelles
Sarreguemines
Selles(-sur-Cher)
Sèvres
Tarbes
Thiers
Tours
Valenciennes
Valognes
Vannes
The only exception to the rule that I can think of off hand -- and some pronounce it with the final S while others pronounce it without -- is Salers (pronounced either sa-LEHR or sa-LEHRSS).
When the final written letter S immediately follows a pronounced vowel, there isn't really any rule about whether of not the S is pronounced. Most of the time, though, it is NOT pronounced. Think about Paris -- pronounced pah-REE in French.These are other examples (like Paree) where the final S is NOT pronounced. Remember, -in-, -en-, -an- are spellings for nasal vowels (no consonant pronounced) and -er- in they cases is pronounced -ay-:
(xxx)-les-Bains
Angers
Béziers
Carpentras
Challans
Coulommiers
Le Mans
Montargis
Moulins
Orléans
Paris
Pithiviers
Poitiers
Provins
Saint-Louis (in the US)
Salbris
Soissons
Thiviers
Tournus (locally, but many French people would pronounce the final S)
Versailles
Villiers
But there are many exceptions. In these names, the final S IS pronounced:
Alès
Dallas (in the US)
Gigondas
Los Angelès (in the US)
Lyons (-la-Forêt, in Normandy)
Mons (in Belgium)
Nyons
Reims
Senlis
Sens
By the way, if you pronounce the S, even on a word as common as Paris (pronouncing it pah-REESS), French people will understand you.
These are just a few examples...
About liaisons (as in "Nantes est une belle ville" -- you do NOT pronounce the S), the rule is that you NEVER make a liaison using the final consonant of a singular noun. For example, in 'le soldat inconnu' you would NEVER pronounce the T of 'soldat'.
You DO make a liaison with the final consonant of an adjective (or article) preceding a noun that starts with a vowel sound (Les-z-Arcs, les-z-hommes, or les beaux-z-arts, for example).
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:20 AM
#26
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Nonetheless, Intrepid did say "general rule" and is correct in that. It is pretty safe to say that words where the "s" is pronounced are exceptions to that rule ("lys," the pronoun "tous"
.
.
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:26 AM
#27
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Caroline--the N in Sens is as much a consonant as the tilde over the a vowel in Portuguese. It is only there to indicate the nasalisation of the vowel, which is why it is not pronounced unless it is "doubled" because of a liaison: <i>un ami</i>, where the nasal is still a nasal, unlike <i>une amie</i>, but N is added to the next word.
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:39 AM
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Oh, là, là ! Que c'est difficile d'expliquer ou d'essayer d'expliquer ce qui nous semble évident quand on est un "native speaker" !!!/How difficult it is to explain or try to explain what seems obvious to us, native speakers !
Thanks, LVSue, for explaining what I meant better than I did Yes, of course, we, French people, can say "ours" ("un ours", des ours"... I've been had, lol ! You made my dh and me laugh ! Merci ! And, as you said, Intrepid1 is right.
Now, caroline_edinburgh, we won't pronounce the "S" of "Tours" even if it is followed by a word beginning with a vowel. In the sentence "Tour(s) est une ville intéressante", the liaison is made between the "r" of TouRs" and the verb "est", it's pronounced the same way as in "Regarde cette tour ! Que cette touR est haute !" ("look at this tower ! How high this tower is !"
!!!/How difficult it is to explain or try to explain what seems obvious to us, native speakers !Thanks, LVSue, for explaining what I meant better than I did
Yes, of course, we, French people, can say "ours" ("un ours", des ours"... I've been had, lol ! You made my dh and me laugh ! Merci ! And, as you said, Intrepid1 is right.Now, caroline_edinburgh, we won't pronounce the "S" of "Tours" even if it is followed by a word beginning with a vowel. In the sentence "Tour(s) est une ville intéressante", the liaison is made between the "r" of TouRs" and the verb "est", it's pronounced the same way as in "Regarde cette tour ! Que cette touR est haute !" ("look at this tower ! How high this tower is !"
Apr 6th, 2005, 07:40 AM
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Who would have thought that this much discussion could occur for a question that was correctly answered with the first reply!
But here's a tangential question... what about if Nantes were to occur in a poem? It is common custom that the silent "e" in words like "une" or "tante" become a second syllable in poetry - - much as we might make an extra syllable (at least in Shakespearean poetry) out of "blessed" (bless-ed, rather than "blest" or "winged" (wing-ed, rather than "wingd".
So, my question... whether for a place name like Nantes, or ordinary words like êtes... or tantes... do these words also get (or have the potential to be) pronounced as two syllables? and would there be a liaison in "Nantes est une belle ville" in poetry? Or "les tantes aiment Nantes" ("aiment" can become two syllables in this example, as I understand it).
Best wishes,
Rex
But here's a tangential question... what about if Nantes were to occur in a poem? It is common custom that the silent "e" in words like "une" or "tante" become a second syllable in poetry - - much as we might make an extra syllable (at least in Shakespearean poetry) out of "blessed" (bless-ed, rather than "blest"
or "winged" (wing-ed, rather than "wingd".So, my question... whether for a place name like Nantes, or ordinary words like êtes... or tantes... do these words also get (or have the potential to be) pronounced as two syllables? and would there be a liaison in "Nantes est une belle ville" in poetry? Or "les tantes aiment Nantes" ("aiment" can become two syllables in this example, as I understand it).
Best wishes,
Rex
!!!
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:04 AM
#32
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Michael's explanation of liaisons reminded me about the movie of my youth: "Les uns et les autres" (Bolero in US) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083260/
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:09 AM
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Rex, poetic style pronounces the "e muet" and tends to make all kinds of forbidden liaisons: Racine's "une nuit éternelle," 7 syllables, link the nuit's T to éternelle. I should think that would mean linking the s in Nantes.
I must say, however, that your poetry leaves a bit to be desired (i.e, it's supposed to sound good).
I must say, however, that your poetry leaves a bit to be desired (i.e, it's supposed to sound good).
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:12 AM
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To Rex :
A mon humble avis/IMHO, you can't make a liaison between "Nantes" and "est", even in a song or a poem and even though the second syllable "tes" can be considered as "un pied"/a foot in poetry... Same thing between "les tantes" and the verb "aiment"...
A mon humble avis/IMHO, you can't make a liaison between "Nantes" and "est", even in a song or a poem and even though the second syllable "tes" can be considered as "un pied"/a foot in poetry... Same thing between "les tantes" and the verb "aiment"...
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:18 AM
#36
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Thanks, Sue... ""une nuit éternelle" is exactly the kind of things I was trying to explain.
And my "sample <i><b>sentences</b></i>" were not intended to be "poetic", but rather, just use ordinary words in an ordinary sentence (plus "Nantes est une belle ville" was cited above)
But now that I think about it, I ran two questions together:
"syllablization" (is this a word?) of Nantes, or tantes... (asking in the poetic context only)... and depending on the answer to the this question...
Liaison or no... with the "S"... or with the "t" (sound).
As I understand your answer...
"Les tantes aiment Nantes" is also seven syllables (really bad haiku here!)... and the fourth syllable is "zim". In contrast, in ordinary speech, there are only four syllables.
And my "sample <i><b>sentences</b></i>" were not intended to be "poetic", but rather, just use ordinary words in an ordinary sentence (plus "Nantes est une belle ville" was cited above)
But now that I think about it, I ran two questions together:
"syllablization" (is this a word?) of Nantes, or tantes... (asking in the poetic context only)... and depending on the answer to the this question...
Liaison or no... with the "S"... or with the "t" (sound).
As I understand your answer...
"Les tantes aiment Nantes" is also seven syllables (really bad haiku here!)... and the fourth syllable is "zim". In contrast, in ordinary speech, there are only four syllables.
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:48 AM
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To Rex,
Well, you've made me discover a French term I had never used before According to "Le Grand Robert", it seems as if "syllabisation" has become obsolete (was used in the 18th century) :
- "SYLLABATION [sil(l)abasjö] n. f. :
- Didact. (ling.). ĞRépartition d'un système d'articulations en syllabes, soit opérée spontanément par le sujet parlant, soit reconnue par le phonéticien d'après la définition qu'il adopte de la syllabeğ (Marouzeau). - REM. On a dit anciennement syllabisation (fin XVIIIe)."
In the last part of your post, were you addressing me ?
If so, yes, the number of syllabes in everyday life is 4 and the number of "pieds"/feet in a poem or a song can be considered as being 7. But what does "zim" mean, please ?
Well, you've made me discover a French term I had never used before
According to "Le Grand Robert", it seems as if "syllabisation" has become obsolete (was used in the 18th century) :- "SYLLABATION [sil(l)abasjö] n. f. :
- Didact. (ling.). ĞRépartition d'un système d'articulations en syllabes, soit opérée spontanément par le sujet parlant, soit reconnue par le phonéticien d'après la définition qu'il adopte de la syllabeğ (Marouzeau). - REM. On a dit anciennement syllabisation (fin XVIIIe)."
In the last part of your post, were you addressing me ?
If so, yes, the number of syllabes in everyday life is 4 and the number of "pieds"/feet in a poem or a song can be considered as being 7. But what does "zim" mean, please ?
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:54 AM
#39
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"zim" = "s" in liaison to "aim" (the first half of "aiment"...
i.e.,
"Les tantes aiment Nantes"
becomes
Lay ta(hn) tə zim ə Na(hn) tə
where a(hn) is my feeble attempt at "writing" the nasal "a" vowel.
i.e.,
"Les tantes aiment Nantes"
becomes
Lay ta(hn) tə zim ə Na(hn) tə
where a(hn) is my feeble attempt at "writing" the nasal "a" vowel.
