luvlimoncello

My husband and I just returned from our 2 week trip to Italy. We were at the Vatican last week and I wonder if anyone else shares our thoughts. This was our 2nd visit, our first was 7 years ago. I was very disappointed in the way the visitors were acting inside of St. Peter's cathedral. I don't feel like people were respecting it as a holy place, they were treating it more like it was a museum of sorts. I noticed people speaking very loudly, not whispering. There was one family where the mother was hollering to the rest of her family that was about 30 feet away. Another family huddled around the holy water dipping in several containers to gather holy water that were about a liter in size. The picture taking was over the top with people posing everywhere. There was even a family that lined up for their pictures in front of the Pope that is laid out in the glass tomb. There was a group of 20-something girls that happened to get the giggles so badly that one of them was snorting and falling on the ground. Before I realized it, I had snapped a quick "sshhhhh" their way. I usually try to mind my own business, but I was just overwhelmed with the lack of respect.

I just don't recall our experience being this way 7 years ago. Perhaps the difference was the last time we had a tour and maybe we were more focused on the information being fed to us rather than the behavior of the surrounding people.

adrienne

Hopefully that was an off day for a few people and this disrespect does not become habit for tourists. I don't remember loud talking the last time I was in St. Peter's in 2005. Sorry you had that experience.

tuscanlifeedit

I'm also thinking you got a bad day. We visited in May 2008 and although there were a lot of people in St Peter's, I didn't notice any bad behavior.

Challiman

We were there in March and while it was busy I didn't find it disrespectful, except in on possible area. As visitors file pass the statue of St. Paul and rub his foot for a blessing, a guard was hurrying people so fast that it seemed everyone was almost running. It was not that crowded and there were only a few people lined up to rub the foot. The guard actually made things worse by his gestures, waving and hissing.
There were lots of people taking pictures but quietly and no groups who were doing anything like dipping containers in holy water. Gee. That is hard to believe.

StCirq

I was there in 2006 (and plenty of times before that) and didn't notice that kind of behavior, but I did see a number of people turned away for lack of respectful clothing who put up a big stink about it, including one 20-something American lout who actually showed up in shorts and a bare chest and was arguing with a guard. Actually, the worst people I encountered were a group of Italian tourist nuns who were pushing and shoving everyone in sight, including some very elderly tourists, to rub St. Paul's foot.

But to me the Vatican is just a Disney-type attraction anyway. IMO, if the Catholic Church really deeply cared about preserving the reverential aspect of it, they'd have it designed all differently anyway. It's a spectacle, a show. And all those rooms and rooms filled with priceless treasures could probably save the continent of Africa. Don't get me started - the pederast priests, the hypocrisy, the misanthropy, and then all the vast accumulated wealth showcased on display when the world is still full of impoverished souls - I can't get past it (and I was brought up Catholic). It sickens me to visit there, and I never will again.

If folks behave badly there it's too bad,but it pales in comparison to how badly the Church itself has behaved.

flanneruk

"I don't feel like people were respecting it as a holy place, they were treating it more like it was a museum of sorts"

Sounds like they understand the place better than you.

Look at the Basilica (not a cathedral by the way) from the outside. Holy? The slogan across its facade is about Paul V, Pope at the time of its erection - not about God or spirituality. The statue of St Peter is about his possession of the keys to the kingdom of heaven - and that's repeated inside, in the inscription at the base of the dome.

St Peter's is about power and glory. It's the administrative centre of the world's largest single religious denomination. No-one - except it seems you - has ever deluded themselves it's got anything to do with holiness.

pdx

Do you think it might be that it's just more crowded than it was on your previous visit? I've loved going to the Vatican for the beauty and the architecture and I have always appreciated being able to see the Sistine Chapel, but man! the crowds have increased so much over the last 10 years. Sort of detracts, doesn't it? All those darn tourists!

thursdaysd

I agree with flanner & StCirq - I thought St. Peters was all about showing off power and money, and nothing whatever to do with spirituality. My comments after I visited: "I don't know whether Luther ever saw St. Peter's but surely that's all it would have taken to turn him Protestant. It's easy to see how a man occupying the throne of St. Peter in the middle of so much grandeur could imagine that he is the mouthpiece of God. For in-your-face, arrogant one-upmanship, St. Peter's would be hard to beat."

Challiman

On my trip to Rome in March, as well as other religious sites, I've often had that very mixed feeling: all the beauty and grandeur on one hand, and the beggars on the steps or around the corner, on the other. That was a literal contrast, but more important was the larger picture, one where the Church has so much, and I'm including many churches here, not just the Catholic church, while millions go needy.
The support of arts has provided the world with stunning works, which may not have been possible without church money, but at the same time I think of the many impoverished people who gave their money when their children needed food, clothing, shelter.
Even in my own church, which is vastly more modest, there is a struggle to balance having a place that invites worship and prayer but addresses the needs of the wider community in a meaningful way.

LilyLace

I guess I am Middle of the road on this one. I do agree with thursdaysd, flanner & StCirq that the Vatican does not represent a Holy Place to me. However, my biggest problem with all sorts of churches/Holy places is when there are specific rules posted and people choose to disobey them. Often there are signs telling tourists to cover shoulders and knees or to speak quietly. I do wonder why people can't obey these requests? If a person has no respect for his/her host then he should simply not visit.

BTW, I think you may have been there on a bad day.
We visted the vatican for the 2nd time in September 08 and did not experience anything upsetting. Most people did act respectfully, and all were clearly not Catholic. Nothing that was so bad for me to actually remember anyway.


Lily

flanneruk

"I don't know whether Luther ever saw St. Peter's but surely that's all it would have taken to turn him Protestant."

For those who don't know, the costs of building the current St Peter's triggered the sale of indulgences, their sale provoked Luther into writing the Theses he's held to have nailed to the door at Wittenberg cathedral, and the Theses are generally held to have been the central point of the German Reformation.

In other words, Luther didn't even need to see St Peter's for the place to make him a Prod.

thursdaysd

LilyLace- "there are specific rules posted and people choose to disobey them." - unfortunately this isn't confined to churches. I see far too many people taking photos in defiance of posted notices, or using flash when photos are allowed but flash isn't. Bottom line, people should follow the rules - and have consideration for their fellow-tourists by not yelling and running around indoors - but they often don't regardless of what building they're in.

Challiman- I know exactly what you mean. Imagine the contrast with daily life when the churches and cathedrals were built! I have the same reaction to all the gold in Thai temples.

flanner - I didn't realize the connection was so direct - I thought the sale of indulgences had been going on longer than that. Thanks.

LilyLace

Thursdaysd: Yes I agree I've seen alot of the other too.

I will add the Mexican cathedrals full of gold as well. It makes me sick to think what the missionaries did those poor native people and then used all their labor and good will (as well as their country's wealth) to build shrines to a God that the indians did not believe in.

thoughts from Pennsylvania backroads,
Lily