My dear PQ,

In what way does the incident described by the OP conform to the definition of "mugging" that you cited?

Was force or threat of force involved?

>perhaps you have a better grasp of the English language than fokes in Jo-Ja!<

My seconds shall call upon you, suh.

Actually think this is one of the better threads running especially if people read everything and pay attention. Don't want to blame the victum but I do think that we all send out slight vibs about what we are doing or intend to do. AND I think the pickpockets, theives are very good at reading those signals. That kind of sets ourselves up for the hit. We need to be aware of those signals and try to avoid sending them.

We have traveled about 300 days in Europe over the past 15 years or so, multi times in Rome, Barcelona, etc. and have never had a problem. BUT we do a lot of small things that I hope cancells those vibs especially with the subways and buses.

Stop and think about the normal behavior of most people in the subway -- bunched up in a knot on the platform, attention focused in the direction that train is coming, etc. Why??? we always know which direction the train is coming from and we know where it is going to stop. There is little advantage to being first in line to get on the cars.

I make the assumption that you have to be set up in advance for the stop and grab. They have to spot you, deem you to be a worth target, and anticipate you movements so that they can get someone in front and in back of you to excute the theft.

We try to disrupt all three actions but especially the anticipated movements. We always make a point of standing away from crowd on the platform by sitting on the bench, if available, or standing with our backs againt the wall or at one end of the platform. That way almost everyone is in front of us and we can watch the crowd for suspicious characters.

We don't move until the cars have actually stopped and then rather quickly move up or down one or two cars. And if a car is slow in loading we might move to another set of doors.

We do the same when getting off. We focus and discuss the stop before we intend to get off. If getting off at D we focus on C. That why if we are overheard we have not given away our intended action. And again, we wait until the car completely stops before moving towards a door. And most times it is not the closest door.

We follow the same practice with existing the subway. Often hang to the back of the exiting mob. If we have a long passage way to the exit may stop a few seconds to adjust a bag or any delay to allow some of the crowd to pass us and to see if anyone stops behind us. When approaching escalators or stairs again try to distrupt your anticpated movements -- stop for few seconds and let others pass. If headed towards the left escalator shift quickly to the right one. Same for entry gates into the subway. Try to be as unpredictable with your movements as you can. For us it is second nature we don't think twice about it. It has either contributed to our success or we have been lucky.

This activity used to drive our kids nuts --- Dad, you are always seeing a spook around every corner. But noticed on the last trip that older son had adopted the same habits. Try it. Works for us.

Ira, when someone has been violated, it is perhaps not the best time to discuss the fine points of whether such violation is better described by this or that term.

****

Graziella, it sounds like you succeeded in holding on to many of your belongings. Give yourself credit for this.

You (and the rest of us) will learn a lot from this unfortunate episode. We were all reminded that swarming attacks are unpredictable, so we travellers must prepare a defense in kind, and act unpredictably. Like soccer players, say, we must only appear to be kicking the ball (in this case, ourselves) in one direction, when we in fact intend to go another. As in soccer, it doesn't always work, but we travellers can only do what we can.

rotaka, I am appalled by what the nurse said to you. To remark on anything but the treatment of your medical condition was very unprofessional. As you speak Italian, I hope you'll write a letter to the hospital in question, thanking those that did help you --- but point out the staff member who let the rest of them down.

fmpdn, I understand what you say, well, we have travel for many more years all over the world, we have lived in New York, Buenos Aires, and Paris. ( Because of my profession and this was the first time we were robbed like that , ( so to match us you still would have to do ok for at least 15 more years ) I guess you are right, and often we have acted accordingly. Lately we only walk or take taxis, except some buses here and there. And we always take le Metro in Paris mainly because of the bad weather
but I prefer the buses or walking.
Definetly that day in Madrid we were totally off guard, totally in the moon,... Why? I guess because ...we are human and were having a great time and looking forward to meet some friends for lunch.
As someone said from New York, we also felt kind of invinsible , and that day we were mentally in the MOON. I pledge guilty of negligence.
Of course we were targeted, for one we were well dressed
but so many persons are well dressed in Madrid.
We are not that young anymore and that might also help, and because it had to happen.
Your advice is good, although I do not know is it possible to keep up with such intense defense tactics ....
I guess one lesson I personally learnt is that Europe is changing faster than I thought.
I also learnt that we could have been attacked any where , and that they work in groups, larger than before.

Unfortunately, being mugged, robbed, pickpocketed in major cities (and not such big cities) on major subway lines and at tourist destinations is pretty common. It's a matter of opportunity.

Graziella,
I'm so sorry to hear you were mugged. That surely must have put a damper on your trip. Thanks for letting us know to be aware in Madrid.

Sandy

Graziella5b, we are older than you think or perhaps we implied -- mid 60s. Your are right the London of today is a lot difference than it was when we first visited in 70. I don't remember then about being overly concerned about security. But then I don't remember things as well as I did then either. I don't view my actions as that intensive just a lot of little things that, as I said earlier, are habit. I do have a couple advantages. At 6-2 I can see over the crowd better than most and in an earlier life had considerable training with an agency that implanted a third eye in the back of my head. It is handy but I fully expect to be hit someday. So I hope it is not too painful.

fmpden. With all my heart I hope you will not be hit
However it is true that we have been many more years traveling around in Europe, may be we started younger.
Your third eye surely comes handy, LOL , your whole attitude is the right one.
As Sue points out the only thing we can give us credit this time is to have lost a few things.
The important thing is we had a great trip both in Italy and Spain.

Hi Sue,

>Ira, when someone has been violated, it is perhaps not the best time to discuss the fine points of whether such violation is better described by this or that term.<

You might have noted that I did express my concern.

The reason for the more precise term is that I have perceived a rising concern among posters (not just here) about petty theft in Europe.

A mugging (force and violence) is a far more serious event than being pickpocketed.

I am glad the the OP wasn't mugged.

People do use terms in different ways. When I read the subject heading "Mugged in Madrid", I did picture a different kind of event from the one that Graziella evidently had, and I was relieved to read her description of the event.

A few years ago, my husband was subjected to a similar event getting on the Circumvesuviana at the Naples train station. We were getting on the train and I found myself separated from him by a crowd of well dressed men in their thirties, I'd say. There was a lot of commotion which prevented me from getting through the door and onto the train. Then everyone suddenly disappeared, I got on the train, and my husband discovered his wallet was gone as the train pulled away.

I have thought of this and described it as a pickpocketing rather than as a mugging. But evidently there are many who use the word mugging differently than I do, since many people responding to this thread are using it as well. What is important is that there is a description of what happened so that we all know what to look out for, and also so that those of us who think of a mugging as a more violent event know that nobody was physically harmed.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, Graziella, and to the other posters and their friends who've had problems.

But I maintain it is the same in any big city - I've been robbed/mugged in London, Barcelona and New York; and having lived in big cities all my adult life, I think I'm as alert as I can be. I did at least manage to hang on to my bag in Barcelona !

I would also refer to being robbed in a public place but without being injured as mugging, as I think is the norm in Britain.

Curious to know where you were going to and from on the underground, though, Graziella - we spent 3 days in Madrid last year and found it so compact we never used the underground or any other transport, other than from and to the airport.

"But evidently there are many who use the word mugging differently than I do, since many people responding to this thread are using it as well. What is important is that there is a description of what happened so that we all know what to look out for, and also so that those of us who think of a mugging as a more violent event know that nobody was physically harmed."

Thank you, Nikki.

ira, speaking of expressions, there is one that goes "first things first" which reflects a common belief that priority is indicated by order. Now, you stated, first, your concern for semantics; then your concern for the poster. I appreciate that you had sincere intentions, but on the other hand, you have also indicated a desire for accurate expression. So, by not choosing your order carefully, you did risk leaving the impression that your priorities didn't favour the poster's well-being.

Mugging/muggers have quite a few meanings. (In Newfoundland, for example, it is still the case that 'muggers' can as often mean theatrical performers or buskers, as robbers.)

With respect to the term as used in connection with violence, the OED suggests it had its origins in boxing/fist-fighting:

2. pugilism - to strike in the face.

Yet surely nobody here would maintain that if someone was threatened in the belly region with a knife, say, as opposed to being struck in the face with fists, they weren't mugged.

Finally, in the supplement to the OED, there is a meaning given as 'huddled together or confined.' Given that Graziella was indeed confined by other people, by this version she was indeed 'mugged.'

Okay, I'm done, William Safire can have his job back now.

Hi Caroline, glad you asked where we were mugged... .........

This is sometime I wish to stress because to my knowledge it is not a tourist spot at all.
We intended to take the subway at Plaza Alonso Martinez, this is a few blocks west of Paseo de la Castellana, West of plush Barrio Salamanca, or may be it is in Barrio Salamanca . I am not sure.
Early that morning we had been NE of that station in the Lazaro Galeano Museum, the line was No. 5, and we planed to take it going South towards the Opera Station.
So, everybody be aware that they are everywhere at any time any day of the week.

Hi Graziella. Ah, so you did get a lot further out of the centre than we did - but you did say you've been several times before so you will have covered more sights than we did in our first trip.

I know what you mean about it happening anywhere - in all cities people may think they are only likely to be robbed at stations heavily frequented by tourists, like Leicester Square in London. But as you say it can happen anywhere and it's not just tourists who are targetted. In London I had my bag snatched on my way home, when I lived in Tottenham, and in New York I was out with resident friends in Alphabet City, so definitely not mainly tourist areas !

Both of those times were at night, though - you must have been even more shocked to have it happen at midday.

But I'm so glad you still think you had a wonderful trip and will go again.

Yes, it is Barrio de Salamanca.

ttt

barrio de salamanca is considered a very chic area.

Before I visited Spain I had heard pickpockets were a problem. I also was in the subway, tired from a long day and not as aware as I should have been. A man fell in step right behind me in the stairwell and tried to take my wallet out of my purse but he failed and ran away. I was lucky and learned a lesson, always be aware. A day or so later another man tried the same and I turned and faced him confrontationally and he also ran away.
Just keep your guard about you and I think you're alright. But your experience sounds like a forced robbery with threats of violence?

Alonso Martinez is not a bad spot at all. But on Sundays, some stations are very lonesome, and instead of pickpocketing (which can happen anyplace), they may act more rudely. Never hesitate to shout Police, or help.

What are the Spanish words for thief, pickpocket, mugger?

What happens when you yell them in a crowded subway?