Ingo - we only hear about the Berlin Wall but there was a wall all along the DDR-West German border as well.

Q- was this breeched at the same time as in Berlin - a flood going thru or was it a day or so later?

Q- and this wall was not a Berlin cement thing i know but were there any successful attempts at escaping thru it like in Berlin

thanks just curious no need to reply

(a) Yes, a day or two later, once the powers that be realised the jig was up - I don't think many people were allowed to live right on top of the western border, after all.

(b) I believe someone tried to escape with a home-made hot-air balloon, but by definition there was further to go to the western border by land and the chances of discovery very much greater. Which was why so many took the route through Hungary once they had opened their border with Austria.

On my very first trip to Berlin (before 1989), I made a point of spending New Year's Eve in East Berlin. Now, <b> that was weird </b>!

Back to the Shoneberg (sp?) Rathaus JFK I am jam donut speech - i went there this January just to see if there was a momument, plaque, etc. and i did not see anything except a JFK Platz, where i figured the speech must have taken place. As it was at night (5pm in Jan) i did not scour the Rathaus walls for a market. But in any case not memorialized much it seems which is weird because i think that this speech to West Berliners must have registered when he gave it - we are all with you, etc.

As for the Airlift about a decade earlier i read that during it there was quite a movement of basics from East Berlin to West or the airlift itself would not have worked? Any insights on that?

I've not read the history of the airlift, but since it was responding to a blockade, it doesn't seem likely anything much was getting in from the East.

As for memorials to JFK's speech, I'm not surprised. Germany's had rather too much history to want to memorialise every step of it.

Logos &amp; Ingo: Thanks for confirming the facts. It's something that I've never heard before till now. It's ironic that the historical moment occurred by accident. I hate to say it but I like the Tear Down That Wall myth better than the truth: a series of miscommunications &amp; blunders on the East German side.

I remember hearing that the first thing East Berliners bought in West Berlin was bananas.

One man's myth is another man's epic.

Always remember that, just because something or someone sounds authoritative, that doesn't necessarily mean it or they IS authoritative.

Also: there are always at least 3 sides to any issue.

Is President Bill Clinton involved in any way?

Given the atmosphere of 1988-89, it was inevitable that the East German regime would have to change and that the Wall would come down. The only issue was whether, how and when the East German hardliners would go quietly.

I wonder about how &quot;accidental&quot; the announcement about exit permits was. Given all that had happened in the previous few months, the implication of any change would have been momentous, and it was obvious that there would have to be some sort of substantive change following Honecker's forced resignation.

There is some evidence that some people in the security agencies in a number of satellites were intervening in the events that led to the change of regime in the satellites, in a way that whipped up popular pressure rather than suppressing it: the mystery non-victim who wasn't murdered in the Prague demonstrations, for example, or the way a crowd suddenly managed to turn on Ceausescu and the security people whisked him away to an escape that couldn't work (not enough fuel in the helicopter, no less). Not hard to work out who might have had an interest in orchestrating as bloodless as possible a collapse of the satellites <i>from within</i>, and the contacts and agents to make it possible.

Barbmike: I believe Clinton was still ruinning Arkansas back in 1989 but he also had his turn to give a speech in Berlin in 1994. Here's the excerpt: http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/ga6-940712.htm

typo: running not ruinning

I believe Clinto during his never exhaled days in Oxford did do a stint of time in Moscow - no doubt on some secret mission that set in motion the opening of the war later. This i have on good confidence. Hillary no doubt will soon take credit.

Christopher Hitchens, a UK American transplant, just got his American citizenship, was a classmate of Clinton in Oggsford and said Bill spent most of his time in the pub holding court - loud braggardly spouting off on anything - what this has to do with anything here is beyond me so i've stop driveling.

An American being loud? Say it ain't so!

T'ain't so!

DAX: no shame that you like the myth with the speech better. Same here I am wondering whether the myth or the truth will be taught as 'truth' in the next centuries.

PalenQ: I believe the wall around the rest of the DDR fell a day later. It was late evening when Mr. Schabowski made the announcement and only in Berlin the wall was in close distance to any border crossing points. But the next day (I think) the border was open everywhere.

Yes, there have been successful attempts to cross the border between DDR and BRD. Actually more than in Berlin. It even happened that East German soldiers who were on duty at the border ran off to the west.

I went to Berlin in 1984 and experienced the wall- Checkpoint Charlie and way into East Germany to see relatives and see some sights.

The telephones with the different money in the underground etc.- all of it is very clear in my memory.

And the soldiers we had &quot;following&quot; us everywhere- heavily armed at all times- it is something you don't forget.

audere, Nov.9 is my oldest son's birthday too. I always remember the date the Wall fell. My relatives are all now in the area in Germany near the French border, most in my Dad's home town, Idar-Oberstein.

Ingo: I'm afraid the truth in what happenned abroad is irrelevant. What will be remembered and written in our history books here will probably be the important presidential quotes followed by &quot;and the rest is history&quot;, just like what PalenQ wrote.

Ingo,

I had a teacher from East Germany who taught a class in German Economic History at Deutsche Sommerschule am Pazifik. His name was Ingo. I always think of him when I read your posts.

DAX: I agree. Unfortunately.

Peg: That's funny. And I am somewhat disappointed - thought my name is exclusive ;-)

&gt;&gt;Christopher Hitchens, a UK American transplant, just got his American citizenship, was a classmate of Clinton in Oggsford and said Bill spent most of his time in the pub holding court - loud braggardly spouting off on anything - &lt;&lt;

By which I understand that he might sometimes have interrupted Christopher Hitchens...