minorized languages in Europe:
Nov 13th, 2000, 03:11 PM
#44
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OK; I'll add a bit more, following a long conversation inmy living room on Friday night. <BR> <BR>There is a strong dialect spoken in Scotland, especially rural Scotland which ahs pretensions to being a language in its own right. (I never thought about this before, but I suspect it doesn't have a distinct grammaer, although it has many distinct dialect words). In the south it is known as Lallans; and in the is part of Scotland, the North East, it's called Doric. It struggles for acceptance although it does have its champions..people like the Scots Language Society. <BR> <BR>It's the language of Burns and Hugh McDiarmid, and is still widely spoken. But its influence is fading. Everyone who speaks it is bi-lingual in Ednglish as well. A chap in our company from a welathy farm spoke of how as a child- he's in his 50s now- he would speak Doric at the scuil(pronounced squeal-that's school, in English) but reverted to English for the benefit of his arther posh mother. <BR> <BR>I as a lowlander, however, went to the skail, but had had the same experience with my mother! <BR> <BR>A lot of it derives from Northern European languages. I remember as a child my father buying an industrial vacuum clean from Nilfisk in Denmark, and my being amazed that the Danish for vacuum cleaner was "Stoor sooker"-(that's probably spelt wrong but it's phonetically correct).That is a direct translation from the Scots for "dust sucker" <BR> <BR>Or discovering that the Dutch for "lark" is laverock. That's also the Scots. <BR> <BR>So "Here's tae us; <BR> Fa's like us? <BR> Gey few; <BR> An' they're a' deid!" <BR>
Nov 13th, 2000, 07:58 PM
#45
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My brother-in-law's family came out to Australia from Lithuania after WW2. As you may be aware, Lithuanian is one of the languages in Europe that has no common roots with other European languages. Interestingly, his parents went back in 1997 for the first time since they left in the late 1940s and were told by the locals that they spoke beautifully because their Lithuanian wasn't tainted with Russian words, which is what happened to the language after the Communist takeover. So overseas Lithuanians are preserving the language as it was. I would assume this has happened in other cases as well, especially with regional dialects.
Nov 14th, 2000, 07:06 AM
#46
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I find this discussion fascinating and a bit ironic as well. It's interesting to see a thread here on Fodor's that deals with language but isn't of the "I'm going to Paris but don't speak French. Will I be able to survive?" type. It's a bit ironic, too, to read such knowledgeable comments about obscure, dead and dying languages when Jacques Barzun in his book "From Dawn to Decadence, 500 Years of Western Cultural Life" states: "It is a noteworthy feature of 20C culture that for the first time in over a thousand years its educated class is not expected to be at least bilingual". <BR> <BR>Regarding Sheila's comment about Hugh MacDiarmid. Rather than being pure and authentic, isn't the language of his poetry his invention of sorts, combining elements of Scots and Lallans? <BR> <BR>Whatever Scotland is to me <BR>Be it aye pairt o' a' men see <BR>O' Earth and O' Eternity <BR>Wha winna hide their heids in't till <BR>It seems the haill o' space to fill, <BR>As 'twere an unsurmounted hill. <BR> <BR>From MacDiarmid's "A Drunk Man Looks at the Thistle" <BR>
Nov 15th, 2000, 08:07 AM
#48
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My sister says much of this is invented, she has a degree in Scots Lit. <BR>These dialects are dying out, as is the Gaelic language.I had a fierce argument recently <BR>with one of these idjitts who thought I should support the Doric as it is "part of your cultural heritage". <BR> My cultural heritage contains more of Larry Marshall & Jim Reeves, but I suppose its cool to pretend otherwise.Scotland has suffered long enough from chanty wrasslers who rewrite history & tell you what your heritage is - kilts, salmon rivers & bagpipes aren't relevant in the histoty of most Scots, but I suppose tuberculosis, war and American dance music aren't cool enough. <BR>Gaelic deserves to be preserved for historical interest, its a true language. <BR> Dialects like Doric are different - they grow & die naturally, this is as it should be IMO. <BR>My own local dialect has changed enormously but is still incomprehensible to outsiders.Its chief use is to mark you as local and therefore worthy of trust!Our WEANS will use whatever suits when the time comes - probably they will employ dialect, but only if it is a useful badge. <BR> I remember when I was 9, I & my sister trying to play with some kids 50 miles away.(in Methil)No chance, complete comms breakdown.As kids, we could only speak dialect.Later we learn to be chameolians.(SP?) <BR> Dialect on its own is limiting. <BR> <BR>
Nov 15th, 2000, 02:27 PM
#49
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Wow! I didn't hope that my topic would have so many responses. I went on holidays some ten days ago and when I've come back have seen so many responses! <BR>For your interest, I've been in northern Africa, in Tunisia, and regarded to this theme, Berber is not only spoken in Algeria and Morocco but also alive in certain few places of Tunisia like the towns of Tamezret, some oasis near Chott el Jerid and the island of Djerba. I know this is not Europe, but I've thought it might be interesting as well, regarding to this topic.
Nov 15th, 2000, 11:39 PM
#51
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I think Frank's entirely valid points just illustrate the fact that dialect is alive and diverse. <BR> <BR>What he says is true of (west central) Scotland but certainly not of the North East. <BR> <BR>Any language on its own is limiting. A pallete is liberating
Dec 18th, 2000, 10:20 PM
#57
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Whilst I have no direct experience of Scottish 'dialects', I would say that northern English, especially that spoken by working-class people over the age of 60, is an interesting topic. <BR>It is full of words that are only valid to a particular town (e g 'ann twacky'***)or even district of that town, but whether this variation in vocabulary and sometimes in grammar is enough to warrant the title 'dialect' I would not know. <BR>I would urge all posters to recognise the difference between 'dialect' and 'accent'. <BR>I M O, I would love to see more people take an interest in their first language, discovering how to use it effectively, before getting sidetracked by often long-lost dialects. We in Britain have TERRIBLE problems with spelling and grammar. Sheila et al, how many times have you had to cringe over the errant apostrophe? Once they were only sprinkled liberally over labels down the local market. Now they are being thrown around in (and often ommitted from)copy in supposedly up-market newspapers and in the adverts they carry. <BR>*** There is a prize of international kudos to anyone who can tell me the meaning and derivation of this term.
Dec 18th, 2000, 10:55 PM
#58
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Nigel, I have sacke secretaries for less!<BR><BR>We have a castle onour patch, where Dracula is meant to have been written, called Slains Castle. Slains is a parish outside Peterhead.<BR><BR>We now have atheme pub in Aberdeen, called Slain's Castle. It makes me cringe everytime I see it. Thank ggod ness for a great English teacher at school to whom I owe many thanks to 
Dec 23rd, 2000, 07:36 PM
#60
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Ben- Re: Yiddish- it seems to be having something of a revival among Jews, and many phrases and words have become part of American slang."tchotcke" a useless object, like a souvenir you didn't need; "schmata" a rag, now referring to clothes--that sort of thing. In our reform temple we now sing some of the songs that can be sung in Hebrew in the Yiddish version that many remember their grandparents using. I don't believe any language conveys irony or heartbreak better than Yiddish.
