SusanP -
I checked the T Mobile web site, and from what I can see they only offer quadband phones to people who take out a contract. The advantage is that you can buy a Motorola v195 (virtually identical to the v197 I mentioned) for only $20 and have it unlocked for use in Europe, the disadvantage is that you'll have to sign a two year contract at $30 per month. That's $720. It isn't worth it unless you do a lot of calling. It would be simpler, I think, to buy an unlocked quadband. I suggested buying one from Motorola, and you could also get one from tigerdirect.com. You can then use the T Mobile prepaid plan for calling in the US. For use in Europe, you need a sim. xyz123 is the go-to guy for cell phone use in Europe. Search for his posts. If you don't want to buy a local sim for European use, you can buy an international sim and keep it for future trips. The basic reference is www.prepaidgsm.net/en/international.html
If you buy an international sim, be sure to find out what you have to do to keep the number alive. The ones my wife and I have require making a phone call every nine months. For what it's worth, she uses a sim sold by United Mobile, I use one sold by Ekit. Sorry that this is so confusing, and good luck.

If you want a phone to use only in Europe, the telestial.com deal with European SIMs is cheapest.

If you want to start T-Mobile service, go to wirefly.com and get a Dash plus a refund.

No-brainer.

Ohhh, OK, so I can buy the phone elsewhere and still use t-mobile's plan, SIM at home (is this a prepaid plan?) in the US and then a SIM card in Italy? Sorry if I seem dense (I'm usually good with this sort of thing), but just want to make sure I understand the details!

Robespierre, I can whine a lot if necessary!

I just ordered that $49 Telestial phone. I'm not sure if I know how to recharge it, but I guess I'll figure it out.

Okay, okay...

A couple of points... T mobile USA being a gsm carrier operates with sim cards...when you open a T Mobile account, they insert a sim card in a gsm phone....for a variety of reasons, many of the phones T Mobile sells are crippled versions of world phones...it seems the USA gets the top of the line phones long after they're available in Europe but you can use any gsm phone with a T Mobile sim card, even one not sold by T Mobile as long as it has the T Mobile frequency 1900 mhz. The tri bands sold in Europe are all 900/1800/1900 and will work, if unlocked, with a T Mobile US sim card so you are not stuck with their limited variety of phones.

Cingular (AT&T) is another story...for a variety of reasons when they went gsm, there was not enough spectrum left for them on 1900 (in some cases they shared towers especially in the NYC area and Nevada and California) with T Mobile USA but they then started operating a lot of their towers on 850...therefore they got the manufacturer's to take many of their models and bastardize them so to speak and change them to tri band 850/1800/1900 with 850 and 1900 needed for full coverage on cingular. T Mobile USA which needed more coverage made several agreement with small gsm carriers in areas they don't cover but these carriers use 850. So for the past couple of years, tri band phones sold by T Mobile are 850/1800/1900. Obviously there is no problem with quad band phones but motorola seems to have most of them and most people I know don't particularly like motorola phones...Sony Ericsson and Nokia have a few quad bands but their bread and butter is Europe and Australia and most of their phones are tri band (900/1800/1900).

Now is not having 900 on a US tri band a problem? Yes and no...if you're using T Mobile or Cingular international roaming, probably not as they have agreements with a lot of carriers and your US tri band phone with 850/1800/1900 will probably be able to register on some network.

However, and it's a big however, if you use such a phone to buy a local sim you have to be careful. For example, O2 UK operates predominantly on 900 so you wouldm't to use a tri band 850/1800/1900 with an O2 UK sim card but T Mobile UK operates predominantly on 1800 so the phone would be fine. You have to check with each local carrier what frequencies they use....of course with a 900/1800/1900 tri band fine for T Mobile USA but next to useless for Cingular you will be fine. You'll also clearly be fine with a quad band (except in Japan which uses a completely different technology).

As far as expiration dates, it depends. Most of the UK sim cards, for example, want a billable event once every 180 days so if you leave the UK and want to go back next year you're up the creek, right? Wrong...they all allow roaming in the USA, Canada and Australia...simply send a text message before the expiration of 180 days and the 35p the text message costs keeps the sim card active for an additional 180 days (although a couple of them extend this period to a full year!)

OTOH French sim cards are very tight with expiration. If you buy a French top up say with Orange FR for €15, it expires in 30 days no matter what and they steal your unused credit but the card remains active and top upable for an additional six months also during this period if you return to France you can top up the card with a new credit....if you want to keep your French number what you have to do before leaving France is procure some recharge tickets and since at least I know Orange FR allows roaming in the USA, you can top up with that slip from the USA even though you know you're throwing away the €10 but that will extend the life of the sim card if you want to keep your number and are not visiting France and don't want to have to get a new sim card when you get back to France.

TIM in Italy expires one year after the last top up so every top up even one for €5 extends the life of the sim card for another year..again get some recharge slips before leaving Italy and since you can roam in the USa, you can recharge from the USA.

United Mobile required on the +423 card a billable event every none months. Using United Mobile in North America is very expensive but sending a text message only costs €0,39 so before the expiration of the nine months, simply send a text message to your own phone (actually most people have said that United Mobile has not been all that blood thirsty and usually doesn't cut off service in 9 months and sort of gives a 3 month grace period and won't deactivate the sim card for a year)...

The bottom line, yes local and international sims do expire but different companies in different countries have different policies.

If you sign up for T-Mobile prepaid, you can get a 850/1800/1900 Samsung t219 for $60 with a $25 airtime card. So your net cost is $35 for a phone that will work in the US and everywhere in Europe that isn't 900 only.

But prepaid isn't all that good a deal. If you don't use a cell phone to yak for hours, a contract plan is just as good (starting at $29.99 for 300 minutes), plus you get the free Dash and $50 refund.

T Mobile, at least as of now, does not allow roaming on its prepaid plans and I believe the Samsung phone you refer to is locked and TM does not issue unlock codes for prepaids (not that it can't be unlocked but you'll have to get it done yourself) and as you note it is 850/1800/1900 with all the problems noted above that can occur with phones lacking 900.

This frequency issue can be a tricky thing....two years ago, Mobal had a special of a very cheap phone and somebody here (I know who it is but won't tell)bragged that this was a great buy and he or she would use the phone with a Virgin Mobile UK sim card and save a bundle....only thing this person discovered much to his or her dismay is the phone was a 900 only monoband and Virgin Mobile UK which is a virtual network meaning it does not have any of its own towers but one of the big operators allow them to use their towers...in the case of Virgin Mobile UK they use T Mobile UK towers...nice deal right...well of course as we noted T Mobile UK is predominantly an 1800 carrier which means Virgin Mobile UK is too and the phone would not work. The person couldn't understand where he or she went wrong and I had to explain!

You've really got to be careful with these frequency things...people go on ebay and buy the wrong phone all the time...on other bulletin board some lady was describing how she had read everything and followed the advice given and bought a tri band phone on ebay and went to Croatia, bought a sim card and the phone would not register. The imbecilic clerk in the mobile phone store told her that it was because the phone was locked so she came back to the USA wanting to kill...she posted her experience on the bulletin board and I had to explain to her that the phone wasn't locked (a locked phone upon booting up with an unauthorized sim card will immediately say just that namely the sim card is unauthorized...if that message doesn't come up and the phone doesn't register on a network it is some other problem) but rather she had an 850/1800/1900 American bastardized tri band (the problem especially with Nokia phones is the same model number can be used for both a true world tri band (900/1800/1900) and an American (for lack of a better term) tri band (850/1800/1900)...anyway she had the bastardized one without 900 and the local Croatian sim she chose was of a carrier that operates exclusively on 900...ouch ouch ouch (although she did admit I was very good which I am of course to immediately diagnose the problem)....

As noted, when you go to ebay or any other web site to buy a phone, oftentimes the seller doesn't know the difference.

SusanP -

1. If you have an unlocked gsm phone that operates on frequency 1900 you can use any T Mobile plan you want to. All you have to do is go to one of their outlets and explain what you want. They'll insert their sim into your phone and they'll activate the service.

2. If you have an unlocked gsm phone that operates on frequencies 900 and 1800 you can use any country or international sim you want to for calling in Europe. If you're going to Italy, say, and you want to use your cell phone, you go to an outlet, probably TIM, and explain what you want.
They'll take out your T Mobile sim (which you'll save for later use in the US), insert their sim, and activate the service. Calling will be inexpensive, but the sim will expire in a few months. If you want to use an international sim, you have to buy it on the internet and follow instructions for activating it. You should also learn how to add new minutes and what you have to do to keep the number active.

3. To do the stuff described in both steps 1 and 2, you need a phone that operates on frequencies 900, 1800, and 1900 (European triband) or on
frequencies 850, 900, 1800, and 1900 (quadband).
The phone must use gsm technology and it must be unlocked. As described above, there are a variety of ways to buy a phone that suits your needs.

4. xyz123 knows more about this stuff than I do, but I think he's wrong about brands. We have both Nokias and Motorolas in our house, and the reception seems equally good on both.

Bon voyage, and good luck.

Just a quick replay in my defense...

I am partial to Nokia over Motorola...the consensus of others who are more expert than I am is that motorolas are not as good as Nokias in terms of sound quality and whatever.

Motorola is of course into other things besides mobile phones...it is Nokia's bread and butter business.

Will Motorolas work adequately? I am sure they will and like I said they have sort of cornered the market for the most part in North America on quad bands with Nokia, SE and other more concerned with their non North American markets.

While a generalization, Americans for the most part above the age of 15 are interested in a mobile phone simply as well a mobile phone. For the most part they don't really care about the bells and whistles. Europeans and Asians OTOH seem very attracted to the technology and hence they use their mobiles as cameras, video recorders, mp3 players whatever and the latest models from manufacturers are always aimed at this market...Europeans don't think twice of swapping in their phones when the latest phones arrive. Most Americans could care less...if the phone works and they can make and receive calls, they'll use other devices for the other things.

So therefore most manufacturers really don't care about the American market; hence the limited variety of phones that are available. Besides which oftentimes T Mobile and Cingular cripple some of the capabilities of some of the phones they sell...but the beauty of gsm is, as noted, if you want a European late model, even if T Mobile for example doesn't carry it, you can buy it and insert your T Mobile sim card and voila you have the latest model.

Whether that's important or not is another issue!

SusanP, one last hint: before signing on with an American service provider, check its cell phone coverage. If both T Mobile and Cingular have poor coverage in your area, you might want to rethink your plan of using a gsm phone in the US.

Perhaps xyz123 could have warned whoever bought that Nokia 5110 from Mobal that it wouldn't work on Virgin <i>before</i>, rather than <i>after</i> the fact.

Fortunately, it was free (ten bucks shipping), and the Fodorite in question peddled it on eBay for a profit. And kept the plug adapter kit that came with it.

Ah Robespierre...

I'm a genius, that's very true but I can't think of every last way people can try to beat the system as doing something like that would never cross my mind. &lt;g&gt;

&quot;...well of course as we noted T Mobile UK is predominantly an 1800 carrier which means Virgin Mobile UK is too and the phone would not work.&quot;

Never saw that.

Jeesh! This is just what I mean, so much confusing information. Oh well, I will print all this out and read it again and see where I stand. I really appreciate all the information!

Capsule summary from a slightly different viewpoint:

In North America, phones use CDMA technology (except for T-Mobile and AT&amp;T) and <font color="red">850/1900</font> mHz.

In Europe, phones use GSM technology (which T-Mobile and AT&amp;T use in the U.S.) and <font color="blue">900/1800</font> mHz.

GSM phones use SIMs, so any phone that will work in Europe has to have one. The phone also has to work on at least one European band, so any of the following can be used:

<font color="blue">900/1800</font> (Europe only, <i>e.g.</i>, telestial.com)
<font color="red">850</font>/<font color="blue">1800</font>/<font color="red">1900</font> (U.S. plus one European, <i>e.g.</i>, T-Mobile's prepaid t219)
<font color="red">850</font>/<font color="blue">900</font>/<font color="blue">1800</font>/<font color="red">1900</font> (works anywhere* <i>e.g.</i>, most of wirefly.com offerings)

The most economical way to buy airtime in Europe is to have an unlocked phone and get local SIMs for it. The alternative is International Roaming on T-Mo or AT&amp;T, which costs at least 99&cent; per minute calling or receiving.

For your situation - since you want to start up cell service in the U.S. anyway - I think you should sign up for a $30/mo plan with T-Mobile on wirefly.com and get a nice free phone, pay to have it unlocked, and buy SIMs in Europe. As I said above, my choice would be the Dash - because it's a $400 computer in addition to being a quad-band phone.

* Not including Japan or Korea

If you have an unlocked gsm phone that works on European frequencies, an alternative is to buy an international sim from the list at
www.prepaidgsm.net/en/international.html
For example, the new United Mobile sim costs 30 Euros with 10 Euros calling credit. Incoming calls are free in western Europe, and outgoing calls cost 29 Eurocents a minute. To keep the sim alive, you have to make a call or send a text message once every nine months.

Good sij..

Just a bit of an addendum...cllas on UM all have an additional flat rate of 0,25&euro; as a set up fee for each call so a 1 minute call costs 0,54&euro; which is $0.73 in US currency but then from then on it is indeed 0,29&euro;/minute but do remember they bill in 1 minute intervals and round up so a 61 second call is billed for 2 minutes..also there are surcharges to call mobile phones in those countries (most of the world as a matter of fact USA and Canada excluded) which operate on the principle caller pays...I forget just what the surcharge is...it's not really a bad deal and the advantages of having a UK (+44) number instead of a +423 (Liechtenstein) number are very important in what the people who call you pay...but when people check the rate charts to see how much they pay to call you, make sure they are aware that no matter where you are, the rate is the rate for UK mobile phones not the rate for UK phones...also be aware that the number is not really in the UK but rather in one of the channel islands (Jersey) and it is possible that in the near or distant future phone cmopanies will figure out ways to surcharge calls to these numbers...but for the time being the charge is indeed to a UK mobile.

The other point people should be aware of is that while it's straight forward to receive calls and yes receiving is free throughout almost all of Wester, Central and Eastern Europe as well as Australia and South Africa, making calls is a little different wwith UM. You dial the number and get a message to wait, you then get a callback,, you answer it and you will hear the ringing sound as the call is completed..it is this system that allows them to undercut the local sims.

Finally, keep your ears open as the eu has thrust itself into this and is forcing local sim cards to drastically lower their rates for roaming so it is very possible that in the near future, it might be better to have say a T Mobile UK card even if you're in France...not there yet but it's coming.

Robespierre, thanks for that summary! And thanks to sjj and xyz as well.

I just ordered my $49 Telestial phone!