Long Trip Report - PARIS...what a dump!
Oct 30th, 2004, 01:13 AM
#142
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Now you have me curious, Helen, and I will have to find a Russians-speaker (not difficult in NYC) to help me learn how to pronounce "èçâèí&egra ve;òå"!
Oct 30th, 2004, 06:27 AM
#144
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What an utter idiot and cultural moron you are.
What you imply is that chicly dressed gentlmen in Hermés suits are urinating in public. In reality, it's tramps. All major cities have tramps, and as a city is public property tramps may travel around freely and do as they wish in public places. You're terribly green, and cannot appreciate the arts or any charm. Paris is one of the world's most elegant cities!
Go back to whatever godforsaken backwater you came from! However, it appears that you have done this many months ago, so farewell.
What you imply is that chicly dressed gentlmen in Hermés suits are urinating in public. In reality, it's tramps. All major cities have tramps, and as a city is public property tramps may travel around freely and do as they wish in public places. You're terribly green, and cannot appreciate the arts or any charm. Paris is one of the world's most elegant cities!
Go back to whatever godforsaken backwater you came from! However, it appears that you have done this many months ago, so farewell.
Oct 30th, 2004, 06:32 AM
#145
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Just can't resist: I am amazed at all the women/wives who have to be "taken" to Paris or anywhere else. When my husband I travel, he doesn't "take" me anywhere; we go together!
Oct 30th, 2004, 09:06 AM
#146
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what an exaggerated report! Paris is not a dump! it is so beautiful that despite the language barrier maintained by some of its citizens (esp those who work nearby at the airport as passport controllers) it is still the number 1 top destination for me & millions of other travellers.btw the louvre website clearly states the first sunday deal,i had read it before i went.you also could have opted to get the 1 day carte musee too instead of the 3 day.i never saw anyone urinating in public there & the boulevards were full of trees.i think the appartment mishap blew it for you.we all have super expectations for our honeymoon but in reality its usually the first time two different ppl travel together so there is extra adjusting and stress .this is apart from the fact that the time before the trip is spent planning & administering the wedding and insufficient time is available for trip planning.
Oct 30th, 2004, 09:16 AM
#147
I've been enjoying the responses on this thread but only now went back and read the original post.
I think it is absolutely hysterical: that their dinners were not as good as the table seated next to them who had ordered the exact same thing; a bait and switch on their hotel room; and french men pissing all over the place... some people just don't have very good luck when they travel!
I think it is absolutely hysterical: that their dinners were not as good as the table seated next to them who had ordered the exact same thing; a bait and switch on their hotel room; and french men pissing all over the place... some people just don't have very good luck when they travel!
Oct 30th, 2004, 12:09 PM
#148
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I sympathize with rippowam. It's interesting that, in the book ALMOST FRENCH, Australian author Sarah Turnbull (who now makes Paris her home) complains about the exact same things he does: public urination; people not picking up after their pampered pets; snotty attitudes from waiters (and not just because you're wearing a track suit and trainers); indifferent food (some GREAT restaurants, but on the whole, so-so); overcooked vegetables, etc.
I sympathize with Rippowam, as he and his bride obviously went to Paris with the idea of having a wonderful, romantic honeymoon and vacation. They didn't, and --contrary to much of the snide opinions on this board---MUCH of it wasn't their own fault.
I sympathize with Rippowam, as he and his bride obviously went to Paris with the idea of having a wonderful, romantic honeymoon and vacation. They didn't, and --contrary to much of the snide opinions on this board---MUCH of it wasn't their own fault.
Oct 30th, 2004, 12:33 PM
#149
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I have always said, (especially the last couple of years) that I would not go to France if I won a free trip. Your post is I am sure what most Americans encounter there but you have the "Die Hard America Frencheys" that will call your post a bunch of lies. In closing, all I can say is ITALY, ITALY,ITALY.
Oct 30th, 2004, 12:39 PM
#150
Please remember, Paris is not France in itself. There are the provinces where people are friendlier. We Americans are used to touching the merchandise. In Paris, it's a no-no. I remember my first time so excited to be in Sonia Rykiel's Boutique. A designer I always wore way back then, and started my touching, unfolding. I got the message fast
Oct 30th, 2004, 12:49 PM
#152
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cigale, LOL about not touching the merchandise in Paris.
Rather like not touching any fresh produce in Italy. One must put on a plastic glove. On another thread I explained how I learned that lessen real fast!! Ah, the joys of traveling.
Have a good weekend.
Rather like not touching any fresh produce in Italy. One must put on a plastic glove. On another thread I explained how I learned that lessen real fast!! Ah, the joys of traveling.
Have a good weekend.
Nov 6th, 2004, 05:32 PM
#154
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KSWL - But in Sarah Turnbull's book "Almost French" these things (the pissing, the dog-shit) ultimately become geographical minutia. Weren't you much more intrigued to learn about the French psyche and French social etiquette as it applies to ordinary life? If visitors put just a little effort into understanding the minds of their hosts they might move on from fretting about their surly waiter and get on with doing what they came to do. And hopefully not doing it wearing a track-suit.
Nov 6th, 2004, 05:46 PM
#155
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Well, since you asked, I was VERY interested in the social interactions between Sarah Turnbull and her boyfriend's friends, but even more so in their interactions with each other. At the end of the book I was not convinced that she interpreted them correctly, i.e. that the French she met were actually shy and/or insecure.
If she accurately described the dinner parties, I would have to say that her mistake was in ultimately exonerating them from their incredibly poor manners just because--after some predetermined passage of "enough" time---they decided that she was marginally acceptable.
They were obnoxious and rude to her, and they were rude to each other. I can't imagine living in that kind of social climate. Certainly her book and her example show us that if would take far more than a "little" effort to understand the minds of our French "hosts" when we go there as tourists. That wouldn't be accomplished in a year!
The surly waiters? If she's correct, they're just incorrigibly rude to everyone, track suit or no. And as to the track suit---I don't wear them, but waiters not wanting to soil their hands with tips from American tourists wearing track suits should post a sign at the door keeping them out.
If she accurately described the dinner parties, I would have to say that her mistake was in ultimately exonerating them from their incredibly poor manners just because--after some predetermined passage of "enough" time---they decided that she was marginally acceptable.
They were obnoxious and rude to her, and they were rude to each other. I can't imagine living in that kind of social climate. Certainly her book and her example show us that if would take far more than a "little" effort to understand the minds of our French "hosts" when we go there as tourists. That wouldn't be accomplished in a year!
The surly waiters? If she's correct, they're just incorrigibly rude to everyone, track suit or no. And as to the track suit---I don't wear them, but waiters not wanting to soil their hands with tips from American tourists wearing track suits should post a sign at the door keeping them out.
Nov 6th, 2004, 07:17 PM
#156
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KSWL - It's been a couple of years since I read the book so I forgotten some of the detail, but I wholeheartedly agree that socially 'acclimatising' is not something that could be done quickly - certainly not in comparatively short time that most visitors allocate to their Parisian sojourn.
My point is that if there were an appreciation from the outset that Paris (or wherever) is not a visitor's home city/country transplanted X distance away, and where the people are the same but simply speak another language, then they are already part of the way to not letting interpersonal issues get under their skin. I'm certainly not saying that I would have come through Sarah Turnbull's experience as nobly (and as well remunerated!) as she has, but reading it made me realize that in different contexts the same behaviour can be interpretted in different ways, and so armed with the understanding that I might not be treated or approached in a way that I might be used to might make me ride through things more easily. A tourist might construe a waiter as being rude or indifferent, a waiter might construe the same tourist as being effusive and overly-familiar (and if you're wearing a tracks-suit - offensively disrespectful!). Neither is necessarily wrong, and so neither should be affronted. And certainly neither should take it personally. But there is an overwhelming sense from these threads that people are hugely affronted by these sorts interpersonal things, and your mentioning "Almost French" became the perfect entry point for bringing this topic to the discussion.
(And further to that bit about the 'surly waiter' - I'm not sure if Sarah ever used that phrase. It was my own distillation of opinions put forward in this forum).
My point is that if there were an appreciation from the outset that Paris (or wherever) is not a visitor's home city/country transplanted X distance away, and where the people are the same but simply speak another language, then they are already part of the way to not letting interpersonal issues get under their skin. I'm certainly not saying that I would have come through Sarah Turnbull's experience as nobly (and as well remunerated!) as she has, but reading it made me realize that in different contexts the same behaviour can be interpretted in different ways, and so armed with the understanding that I might not be treated or approached in a way that I might be used to might make me ride through things more easily. A tourist might construe a waiter as being rude or indifferent, a waiter might construe the same tourist as being effusive and overly-familiar (and if you're wearing a tracks-suit - offensively disrespectful!). Neither is necessarily wrong, and so neither should be affronted. And certainly neither should take it personally. But there is an overwhelming sense from these threads that people are hugely affronted by these sorts interpersonal things, and your mentioning "Almost French" became the perfect entry point for bringing this topic to the discussion.
(And further to that bit about the 'surly waiter' - I'm not sure if Sarah ever used that phrase. It was my own distillation of opinions put forward in this forum).
Nov 6th, 2004, 09:54 PM
#157
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I think it is very true that many American's have fantasy thoughts about Paris. It is an almost magical word to them and certainly a romantic one. Even as children, we see it as enchanting. Perhaps films and literature have a lot to do with this. Paris isn't like it was when Hemingway was eating pigeons. Thus, people come with hyped up expectations and don't accept the city as it is. Further, as others have said, the cuture is different.
That being said, I'm glad I couldn't afford Paris when we had our honeymoon. We drove north to Canada in an old Chevy Malibu, walked daily through the woods and hills, once to a pristine lake and had nice "quiet" nights. I know you say you are used to big old cities, but maybe you two should have a second honeymoon someplace quiet rather than sightsee in an enormous place. It's quite romantic to be isolated. Or not so try Madrid.
Best wishes. Good for you for stating your honest opinion. (If you're there; this thread is getting pretty old.)
That being said, I'm glad I couldn't afford Paris when we had our honeymoon. We drove north to Canada in an old Chevy Malibu, walked daily through the woods and hills, once to a pristine lake and had nice "quiet" nights. I know you say you are used to big old cities, but maybe you two should have a second honeymoon someplace quiet rather than sightsee in an enormous place. It's quite romantic to be isolated. Or not so try Madrid.
Best wishes. Good for you for stating your honest opinion. (If you're there; this thread is getting pretty old.)
Nov 6th, 2004, 11:13 PM
#158
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Yes, Logsy, I agree with you, mostly. My only point of departure with your opinion would be that, cultural differences aside, we are all members of the human race. Despite the many cultural AND individual factors that manifest in a waiter's treatment of a customer on any given day (bad hair day, tired, kids sick, teenager wrecked the car, or just sick of tourists) even the surliest French waiter who loathes American tourists KNOWS when he or she is being obnoxious.
I guess I am saying that people in service positions should at least pretend to be nice--and that goes not only for French waiters, but for hairdressers and taxi drivers, etc., of all nationalities. These people are taking your money willingly, and a certain amount of --well, I won't say deference although that IS the first word that comes to mind--let's say, courtesy---should be given in return.
Don't you think, further, that it would be extremely difficult not to take deliberate rudeness, directed at one's person, personally? Sarah Turnbull found that the best way ( for her) to counter the negativity she felt from rude shopkeepers and others was to be extremely rude right back. (Remember when a stranger remarked sarcastically upon seeing her dog in the pastry shop? She immediately gave riposte with the comment, "Imagine, a 'con' in a pastry shop!" (I'm assuming you know the vernacular, as I wouldn't say that in English on this board, and my apologies to the French folk--I'm quoting.) This nasty retort made her feel good about herself and her ability to verbally wound others instead of being wounded herself, and her husband affectionately retold the story over and over. Most Americans I know are not that thick-skinned and are either too polite or would be too aghast to reply in kind.
I guess I am saying that people in service positions should at least pretend to be nice--and that goes not only for French waiters, but for hairdressers and taxi drivers, etc., of all nationalities. These people are taking your money willingly, and a certain amount of --well, I won't say deference although that IS the first word that comes to mind--let's say, courtesy---should be given in return.
Don't you think, further, that it would be extremely difficult not to take deliberate rudeness, directed at one's person, personally? Sarah Turnbull found that the best way ( for her) to counter the negativity she felt from rude shopkeepers and others was to be extremely rude right back. (Remember when a stranger remarked sarcastically upon seeing her dog in the pastry shop? She immediately gave riposte with the comment, "Imagine, a 'con' in a pastry shop!" (I'm assuming you know the vernacular, as I wouldn't say that in English on this board, and my apologies to the French folk--I'm quoting.) This nasty retort made her feel good about herself and her ability to verbally wound others instead of being wounded herself, and her husband affectionately retold the story over and over. Most Americans I know are not that thick-skinned and are either too polite or would be too aghast to reply in kind.
Nov 7th, 2004, 07:09 AM
#159
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Kswl
You have hit the crux of the argument when you raised the subject of people being members of a common human race or culture, for who's to say a given behaviour isn't the product of nature as opposed to a given physical or social environment? Consequently, conflicts between tourists and locals can't invariably be explained as being due to one party's being ignorant of the specific cultural differences of the other, since there isn't even universal agreement on whether a given behaviour is due to culture or environment at all, let alone due to a specific environment.
In contrast, every human being understands that the ideal is to have things their way and to have their way quickly and easily. Coercion is often chosen, howsoever unwisely, as a means of meeting that ideal. The proof is that belligerence has a certain universal language: if someone brandishes a sharp knife near my throat, I'm not about to decide that this is just the locals' way of greeting me good morning. And while I know that most conflicts don't involve knives, and that often they arise out of misunderstandings, I also know that conflicts of all types frequently erupt when one of the parties tries to dominate the other. I don't agree with the response chosen by the author you mention (which isn't to say I always resist the temptation to act likewise) because tit-for-tat tends to distract from the problem at hand. For example, my primary concern in a pastry shop would be to get the goods, not win a sparring contest with a stranger.
You have hit the crux of the argument when you raised the subject of people being members of a common human race or culture, for who's to say a given behaviour isn't the product of nature as opposed to a given physical or social environment? Consequently, conflicts between tourists and locals can't invariably be explained as being due to one party's being ignorant of the specific cultural differences of the other, since there isn't even universal agreement on whether a given behaviour is due to culture or environment at all, let alone due to a specific environment.
In contrast, every human being understands that the ideal is to have things their way and to have their way quickly and easily. Coercion is often chosen, howsoever unwisely, as a means of meeting that ideal. The proof is that belligerence has a certain universal language: if someone brandishes a sharp knife near my throat, I'm not about to decide that this is just the locals' way of greeting me good morning. And while I know that most conflicts don't involve knives, and that often they arise out of misunderstandings, I also know that conflicts of all types frequently erupt when one of the parties tries to dominate the other. I don't agree with the response chosen by the author you mention (which isn't to say I always resist the temptation to act likewise) because tit-for-tat tends to distract from the problem at hand. For example, my primary concern in a pastry shop would be to get the goods, not win a sparring contest with a stranger.
Nov 7th, 2004, 07:15 AM
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We just returned from our 5th vacatin in Paris. Frankly, I have never noticed men peeing in public on our previos trips. Only dogs. However, as we were waiting outside of gate 2 at CDG for our shuttle. I saw a young mother tell her 4 year old to pee on a car which was parked there. Since there a public restrooms inside the terminal I thought this was pretty silly. The next morning we were were out early and I saw two young men peeing into a flower box in front of a cafe (it was closed). I wish there were more free public restrooms in Paris. We live in So. Ca. and although we don't go there, I understand there is a similar problem in downtown LA with pulic urination.
Paris is a big city and it has the same problems as any other big city. One should never go to any city uninformed about the food and the neighborhoods ect., especially on your honeymoon. I would recomend a good hotel in a central area for the first timers. After you are familier with the city and the different areas then you can make an informed decision about an apartment, besides the people working in the hotels are a great source of inforamtion and can recomend restaurants and tours and call cabs. This is true even in budget hotels.
We stayed in an apartment this trip. I researched it thoroughly and was not disapointed. I can see how having a bad apartment experience could really put a damper on your trip.
Like love I have found Paris to be much sweeter the 2nd time aroung and the the third, 4th and 5th.
Paris is a big city and it has the same problems as any other big city. One should never go to any city uninformed about the food and the neighborhoods ect., especially on your honeymoon. I would recomend a good hotel in a central area for the first timers. After you are familier with the city and the different areas then you can make an informed decision about an apartment, besides the people working in the hotels are a great source of inforamtion and can recomend restaurants and tours and call cabs. This is true even in budget hotels.
We stayed in an apartment this trip. I researched it thoroughly and was not disapointed. I can see how having a bad apartment experience could really put a damper on your trip.
Like love I have found Paris to be much sweeter the 2nd time aroung and the the third, 4th and 5th.
