London Q- Whole Foods Market?
May 15th, 2007, 11:34 AM
#21
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I live in Kensington and I personally cannot wait for Whole Foods to open up. The old Barkers building is beautiful and I have been watching the transformation from the top of the double-deckers for months. So far, the lighting looks great - no strip lights a la Tesco. I read that Whole Foods won't do online delivery - they believe you should pick your own food as their idea of a good tomato might not be your - but they will deliver your groceries about 2 hours after you've paid for them. Finally!! That gives me enough time for pancakes and maple syrup at Balans. Who knows if it will fly but they have picked a really good place for their flagship London store. There are plenty of Americans and French in Kensington and loads of trustafarians and yummy mummies with money around here.
May 15th, 2007, 11:38 AM
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Then get ready for lots of "organic this" and "organic that" as well as free-range everything,wonderful bread selections, probably some crazy breakfast food brands from the high steppes of eastern Slobovia, bulk pine nuts from northern Lapland, and more than a few suspicious-looking cheeses.
Kidding aside, I think you'll love it.
Kidding aside, I think you'll love it.
May 15th, 2007, 12:18 PM
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I brought in some quiches, muffins and fruit for my mother's day brunch on Sunday. My mom, when finding out it was all purchased at Whole Foods, nearly choked on her organic strawberry. "You must have spent a fortune!" she said. A bit of a generational thing, I guess...
May 15th, 2007, 12:21 PM
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I've often wondered whether the awful service that's so characteristic of American restaurants is entirely the result of the country's dreadful tipping system.
A restaurant owner - whether of a chain or an independent - has a strong interest in getting customers to come back. He's invested in a relatively expensive location and in a whole pile of reputation-earning activities. He wants to spread that investment over as many repeat visits as possible, and a 10% reduction in daily throughput by encouraging a spot of lingering is fine of it gets the customers back next month. Being nice and getting repeat customers is a much more cost-efficient way of generating business than yet another "2 for the price of 1" promotion
Tip-remunerated staff have no interest in customer satisfaction: just in whatever punter-pleasing tricks will charm tips out of them. Since they're not going to be in that job for long, once a punter's paid and tipped, that punter's role in life is ended. They want them out, so the next mug can be manipulated.
A restaurant owner - whether of a chain or an independent - has a strong interest in getting customers to come back. He's invested in a relatively expensive location and in a whole pile of reputation-earning activities. He wants to spread that investment over as many repeat visits as possible, and a 10% reduction in daily throughput by encouraging a spot of lingering is fine of it gets the customers back next month. Being nice and getting repeat customers is a much more cost-efficient way of generating business than yet another "2 for the price of 1" promotion
Tip-remunerated staff have no interest in customer satisfaction: just in whatever punter-pleasing tricks will charm tips out of them. Since they're not going to be in that job for long, once a punter's paid and tipped, that punter's role in life is ended. They want them out, so the next mug can be manipulated.
May 15th, 2007, 12:48 PM
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Wojazz3, that has never happened to me except when I managed to get a table in a Swiss restaurant and was toldI would have to be finished by a certain time because the table was reserved after that.
May 15th, 2007, 01:08 PM
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Actually, having said that about being rushed out, I think the tide is changing a bit in that regard, at least out here in the wild west. Granted, I rarely sit at an establishment and don't have at least a drink in my hand, but I can't remember recently being rushed out. The other side of that is that I probably have naturally learned to avoid such places having lived in the same area for so long.
The tipping issue may have something to do with it, though oddly, I more often get the idea that the push comes from the managers, not the staff. Again, it's been quite a while since I've even considered a trip to the posh cultural hubs in the US, so I can't comment on it there.
Tipping always brings up a war and which country has the worst service, those with tips or those without. I personally prefer tipping because I get to be the CEO and decide if a bonus is warranted. I honestly don't think that the service in US restaurants is bad and I've had equally bad or worse service in the UK and Ireland. Sure there is the argument that the waitstaff is just pretending to be nice and they are just faking it to get a good tip. Perhaps that it true (and it certainly is sometimes) but I'd just as soon have someone fake being nice to get a tip as be openly rude because they aren't. I guess it's Hell either way, eh? If the option is to increase their pay so that they can then be rude .....
I will say, and perhaps at least in my part of the world that it's being realized, that if I get rushed out of a place, the tip goes down. On the other hand, if I'm in a place that is suddenly packed with folks holding those insipid little remote control light boxes to let you know a table is ready, I really want to get out and go somewhere a little more relaxed.
What I find most irritating in the States is the notion that good service is defined clearing away the plates from a table sometimes before the dining is done or stopping and asking how everything is again and again. I don't mind a plate in front of me for a few minutes and if you walk by slowly and I need something, I'll ask. There is the idea that you are being asked to leave because your plates are being whisked away, but I don't think that is the desired intent from the staff. They just think it's good service when in fact it's, at least from my point of view, overbearing. I remember wondering why the service was so bad in an Irish restaurant the 1st time I was there. I didn't realize I had to ask for the bill. Ah, cultural differences.
Tipping may very well have something to do with being rushed out in a lot of cities. It's an interesting point but I don't think it's messing up the places I frequent.
Bill
The tipping issue may have something to do with it, though oddly, I more often get the idea that the push comes from the managers, not the staff. Again, it's been quite a while since I've even considered a trip to the posh cultural hubs in the US, so I can't comment on it there.
Tipping always brings up a war and which country has the worst service, those with tips or those without. I personally prefer tipping because I get to be the CEO and decide if a bonus is warranted. I honestly don't think that the service in US restaurants is bad and I've had equally bad or worse service in the UK and Ireland. Sure there is the argument that the waitstaff is just pretending to be nice and they are just faking it to get a good tip. Perhaps that it true (and it certainly is sometimes) but I'd just as soon have someone fake being nice to get a tip as be openly rude because they aren't. I guess it's Hell either way, eh? If the option is to increase their pay so that they can then be rude .....
I will say, and perhaps at least in my part of the world that it's being realized, that if I get rushed out of a place, the tip goes down. On the other hand, if I'm in a place that is suddenly packed with folks holding those insipid little remote control light boxes to let you know a table is ready, I really want to get out and go somewhere a little more relaxed.
What I find most irritating in the States is the notion that good service is defined clearing away the plates from a table sometimes before the dining is done or stopping and asking how everything is again and again. I don't mind a plate in front of me for a few minutes and if you walk by slowly and I need something, I'll ask. There is the idea that you are being asked to leave because your plates are being whisked away, but I don't think that is the desired intent from the staff. They just think it's good service when in fact it's, at least from my point of view, overbearing. I remember wondering why the service was so bad in an Irish restaurant the 1st time I was there. I didn't realize I had to ask for the bill. Ah, cultural differences.
Tipping may very well have something to do with being rushed out in a lot of cities. It's an interesting point but I don't think it's messing up the places I frequent.
Bill
May 15th, 2007, 02:29 PM
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>>>>>
too arrogant to understand that UK consumers don't think they're distinctive. That's long been Gap's problem
>>>>>
the gap's problems have nothing to do with being arrogant in their non-US operations. Zara has a completely different business model...a model that involves copying fashions and getting them into their stores at lightening speed. the gap and many other more traditional retailers try to create demand by investing in risky campaigns for each new season...in other words, trying to set trends rather than copying them. some trends hit and some miss (increasingly more of gaps are missing). the gap has the same exact problem in their home country....it has nothing to do with arrogance in the UK market.
primark succeeds by selling clothing for £2 to the underclasses...a poor comparison with the gap, zara, or h&m.
as for whole foods, it will be interesting to see how their new WF branded stores will do.
interestingly, some of the newer and larger m&s simply food stores (e.g. one that i just visited in bristol harbourside), look more like a US style whole foods market (clean, warehousy look). the main difference is that whole foods stores in the US have a more natural look. m&s bombard the customer with plastic boxes of food and miles of refrigerators. i tend to prefer the more natural look with bananas not boxed up in plastic as m&s does. most significantly, even the newer style m&s stores still cling to selling poor quality and poorly styled clothing alongside supposedly upmarket foods. a weird concept that needs to go the way of the dodo bird. yes, tesco succeeds in this but they are different.
i think that whole foods has a real opportunity here (though succeeding in food retailing takes more than just a better concept). many of the current upmarket stores like m&s just don't work any longer with their dated approaches.
although better than m&s, waitrose is vulnerable with far too many locations than it needs...and many worn stores that dilute the brand....looking no better than an iceland on a good day.
now only if whole foods' arguably better hometown rival, central market would come to england....we may see a lot of waitrose and m&s stores wiped off the map.
nobody knows if WF will succeed here but even if it fails, hopefully the competition will breath new life into our complacent and tired stores like waitrose and especially m&s.
too arrogant to understand that UK consumers don't think they're distinctive. That's long been Gap's problem
>>>>>
the gap's problems have nothing to do with being arrogant in their non-US operations. Zara has a completely different business model...a model that involves copying fashions and getting them into their stores at lightening speed. the gap and many other more traditional retailers try to create demand by investing in risky campaigns for each new season...in other words, trying to set trends rather than copying them. some trends hit and some miss (increasingly more of gaps are missing). the gap has the same exact problem in their home country....it has nothing to do with arrogance in the UK market.
primark succeeds by selling clothing for £2 to the underclasses...a poor comparison with the gap, zara, or h&m.
as for whole foods, it will be interesting to see how their new WF branded stores will do.
interestingly, some of the newer and larger m&s simply food stores (e.g. one that i just visited in bristol harbourside), look more like a US style whole foods market (clean, warehousy look). the main difference is that whole foods stores in the US have a more natural look. m&s bombard the customer with plastic boxes of food and miles of refrigerators. i tend to prefer the more natural look with bananas not boxed up in plastic as m&s does. most significantly, even the newer style m&s stores still cling to selling poor quality and poorly styled clothing alongside supposedly upmarket foods. a weird concept that needs to go the way of the dodo bird. yes, tesco succeeds in this but they are different.
i think that whole foods has a real opportunity here (though succeeding in food retailing takes more than just a better concept). many of the current upmarket stores like m&s just don't work any longer with their dated approaches.
although better than m&s, waitrose is vulnerable with far too many locations than it needs...and many worn stores that dilute the brand....looking no better than an iceland on a good day.
now only if whole foods' arguably better hometown rival, central market would come to england....we may see a lot of waitrose and m&s stores wiped off the map.
nobody knows if WF will succeed here but even if it fails, hopefully the competition will breath new life into our complacent and tired stores like waitrose and especially m&s.
May 15th, 2007, 02:52 PM
#29
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Central Market. Whenever I'm in Dallas visiting relatives, that is a must on our list of things to do (doesn't say a lot for Dallas). Flashier than Whole Foods, with bin after bin of prepared gourmet-ish foods. But it follows the IKEA concept of corralling you through the whole store. Not sure I'd want that on a regular basis.
May 15th, 2007, 02:57 PM
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Whole Foods sure is pretty, but it annoys the crap out of me, to be honest. It's not just the prices, it's the absolute saturation levels of marketing everywhere you turn. Mood lighting, big posters of attractive farmers pulling that one special potato out of the ground just for you, the ad copy pinned to every single article, etc.
And of course like a lot of the "organic" world it's borderline fraudulent. Large agribusinesses like ConAgra and retailers like Whole Foods have bullied the FDA (not difficult, admittedly) into watering down the "organic" label until it means little.
I'm particularly annoyed that they're selling farmed Atlantic salmon penned right here in Puget Sound -- not in our market, because we won't buy it, but elsewhere -- as "natural", as if corn and soybean meal was a natural salmon food, or that Atlantic salmon was natural in Pacific waters. They're damaging our ecosystem, more so than a lot of non-organic producers.
"Free range" milk and eggs at Whole Foods are a con -- you can get that "free range" sticker by having a six-inch door open for a week at the side of a barn containing a hundred thousand chickens.
Most of Whole Foods, and the organic market as a whole, is packaged foods, which are just as garbage in the organic variety as in the non.
Whole Food's meat case is admittedly a thing of wonder. But I try to buy from my local farmer's market when I can. If I was in London, I'd try to take advantage of their spectacular markets instead of Whole Foods.
And of course like a lot of the "organic" world it's borderline fraudulent. Large agribusinesses like ConAgra and retailers like Whole Foods have bullied the FDA (not difficult, admittedly) into watering down the "organic" label until it means little.
I'm particularly annoyed that they're selling farmed Atlantic salmon penned right here in Puget Sound -- not in our market, because we won't buy it, but elsewhere -- as "natural", as if corn and soybean meal was a natural salmon food, or that Atlantic salmon was natural in Pacific waters. They're damaging our ecosystem, more so than a lot of non-organic producers.
"Free range" milk and eggs at Whole Foods are a con -- you can get that "free range" sticker by having a six-inch door open for a week at the side of a barn containing a hundred thousand chickens.
Most of Whole Foods, and the organic market as a whole, is packaged foods, which are just as garbage in the organic variety as in the non.
Whole Food's meat case is admittedly a thing of wonder. But I try to buy from my local farmer's market when I can. If I was in London, I'd try to take advantage of their spectacular markets instead of Whole Foods.
May 15th, 2007, 03:22 PM
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But what about those wonderful bulk pine nuts from Lapland? Surely <b>those</b> are enough incentive to keep you coming back for more of the same.
Besides, you know you LIKE paying all that money because..well..because you CAN!
Besides, you know you LIKE paying all that money because..well..because you CAN!
May 15th, 2007, 03:54 PM
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That was exactly what I thought! We have a Whole Foods a 1/2 mile from us..amd some things are alright...but I can buy organic veg and fruit for 1/2 the price at my Publix, the meat and fish dept. nowhere equals the nearby Fresh Market...and the clerks with pierced tonuges turn me totally off.!
Fresh Market has a much better selection of everything.
IO can't believe that anyone in London that could go to Borough MArket would even look at Whole Foods!
Fresh Market has a much better selection of everything.
IO can't believe that anyone in London that could go to Borough MArket would even look at Whole Foods!
May 15th, 2007, 09:55 PM
#34
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"IO can't believe that anyone in London that could go to Borough MArket would even look at Whole Foods!"
It's simply not worth discussing whether lots of people who use Borough Market will, for as long as Whole Foods survives, spend more money on food there than at Borough Market.
Of course hundreds - indeed thousands - will spend more at Whole Foods. But that's not the question that matters.
Whole Foods will be open 7 days a week, it'll be open when people aren't at work, it'll be near where lots of affluent people live, it'll be slap next door to where lots of people shop, it'll have some kind of delivery system, it'll be possible to do a full week's shopping there, and whatever we're going to think of WF's prices, it won't be possible for those prices to be seriously higher than the extortionate knock-offs that ghastly big fruit and veg place inside Borough Market charges.
Unless WF is seriously awful, it'll get lots of customers. But this branch - 80,000 sq ft (over twice the size of the very biggest food superstores in Inner London) of some of the world's priciest real estate - needs an AWFUL lot. My back of the envelope sums say at least 15,000 to 20,000 a week, spending on average £100 a time. And if you try carrying £100 of groceries much more than a few yards, you'll see that creates home delivery and car parking challenges on a scale Ken High St just isn't geared up to. Unless the untapped market for Lappish pinenuts is a very great deal bigger than anyone's ever suspected.
And that's just the first bit of WF's problem. Because they've then got to build up a critical mass of other branches fast enough to pay for the UK head office they've had to create before the drain from an embryonic UK operation drags a medium-sized company (it's only making £100 million a year from the whole of its operations) into serious difficulties. Remember Wal-Mart whinges it can't find land in Britain for even its stores - even when it strips its need down to half the size of this WF branch.
Doing all that on the home territory of the world's nastiest grocers (Tesco and Sainsbury have frightened Carrefour away, forced Metro to put its UK operations up for sale, ensured Wal-Mart's UK acquisition has lost share since the Buffoons of Bentonville taught Asda how to screw up, and reduced Aldi to a marginal player) will be a great deal tougher than starting up on the periphery of HE Butt's territory in a Texas college town.
I wish them well: I'll be making lengthy journeys to sample - and buy - their produce. But I wouldn't buy their shares.
It's simply not worth discussing whether lots of people who use Borough Market will, for as long as Whole Foods survives, spend more money on food there than at Borough Market.
Of course hundreds - indeed thousands - will spend more at Whole Foods. But that's not the question that matters.
Whole Foods will be open 7 days a week, it'll be open when people aren't at work, it'll be near where lots of affluent people live, it'll be slap next door to where lots of people shop, it'll have some kind of delivery system, it'll be possible to do a full week's shopping there, and whatever we're going to think of WF's prices, it won't be possible for those prices to be seriously higher than the extortionate knock-offs that ghastly big fruit and veg place inside Borough Market charges.
Unless WF is seriously awful, it'll get lots of customers. But this branch - 80,000 sq ft (over twice the size of the very biggest food superstores in Inner London) of some of the world's priciest real estate - needs an AWFUL lot. My back of the envelope sums say at least 15,000 to 20,000 a week, spending on average £100 a time. And if you try carrying £100 of groceries much more than a few yards, you'll see that creates home delivery and car parking challenges on a scale Ken High St just isn't geared up to. Unless the untapped market for Lappish pinenuts is a very great deal bigger than anyone's ever suspected.
And that's just the first bit of WF's problem. Because they've then got to build up a critical mass of other branches fast enough to pay for the UK head office they've had to create before the drain from an embryonic UK operation drags a medium-sized company (it's only making £100 million a year from the whole of its operations) into serious difficulties. Remember Wal-Mart whinges it can't find land in Britain for even its stores - even when it strips its need down to half the size of this WF branch.
Doing all that on the home territory of the world's nastiest grocers (Tesco and Sainsbury have frightened Carrefour away, forced Metro to put its UK operations up for sale, ensured Wal-Mart's UK acquisition has lost share since the Buffoons of Bentonville taught Asda how to screw up, and reduced Aldi to a marginal player) will be a great deal tougher than starting up on the periphery of HE Butt's territory in a Texas college town.
I wish them well: I'll be making lengthy journeys to sample - and buy - their produce. But I wouldn't buy their shares.
May 16th, 2007, 02:19 AM
#36
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I shopped for groceries a couple of times at a Whole Foods store in New York and was flabbergasted at the prices they were charging.
Basic fruit, vegetables, cheese, etc. were so expensive, I couldn't quite imagine that people were willing to pay those prices on a regular basis! $11 for a bag of ground coffee, $5 for a small piece of cheese, $4 for a few tomatoes...
Were these just NYC prices or is it as expensive elsewhere?
Basic fruit, vegetables, cheese, etc. were so expensive, I couldn't quite imagine that people were willing to pay those prices on a regular basis! $11 for a bag of ground coffee, $5 for a small piece of cheese, $4 for a few tomatoes...
Were these just NYC prices or is it as expensive elsewhere?
May 16th, 2007, 02:58 AM
#37
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The prices here in my local Whole Foods are certainly higher for some items than they are at competitors such as Safeway and in some cases the items appear to be pretty much identical (some of the produce comes to mind).
Who knows about New York although I can tell you from experience a few years ago we were in NYC and happened to stop in at Dean and Deluca which is another "high end" shopping opportunity.
They had tomatoes reputedly flown in from France. Since many of the tomatoes found in supermarkets in the US are known for tasting like cardboard, and why I grow my own each summer now, we bought two of these outrageously-priced items to see if they tasted any differently.
Unfortunately, they didn't...must have been that long flight from france, probably in Economy, which did them in.
Who knows about New York although I can tell you from experience a few years ago we were in NYC and happened to stop in at Dean and Deluca which is another "high end" shopping opportunity.
They had tomatoes reputedly flown in from France. Since many of the tomatoes found in supermarkets in the US are known for tasting like cardboard, and why I grow my own each summer now, we bought two of these outrageously-priced items to see if they tasted any differently.
Unfortunately, they didn't...must have been that long flight from france, probably in Economy, which did them in.
May 16th, 2007, 04:01 AM
#38
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"gap..try to create demand by investing in risky campaigns for each new season...in other words, trying to set trends rather than copying them. some trends hit and some miss " ?!? Whenever I go past their windows they only ever seem to feature a) very plain beige trousers, b) very plain white shirts or c) both.
As for Borders encouraging customers to loaf about, reading and drinking coffee - the idea doesn't really fit in with their requirement that you have to buy something before you are allowed to use the loo. On my only visit to one I'd planned to use the loo, then shop - but was told I needed to buy first to get the secret combination code for the loo from my receipt. I couldn't believe the attitude, and haven't been back.
As to the original shops being discussed - in the UK even our supermarkets have many varieties of tomatoes flown in from the Continent, and the big cities at least are well stocked with independent shops which have fresh, seasonal produce, for instance the finest Italian tomatoes and Amalfi lemons, brought by lorry several times a week from markets such as Milan's. So I don't think we have so much of a gap in the market. But if I were to live near one of these places and it were open late at night, then yes I'd use it sometimes. But only when the smaller more specialist shops were shut.
As for Borders encouraging customers to loaf about, reading and drinking coffee - the idea doesn't really fit in with their requirement that you have to buy something before you are allowed to use the loo. On my only visit to one I'd planned to use the loo, then shop - but was told I needed to buy first to get the secret combination code for the loo from my receipt. I couldn't believe the attitude, and haven't been back.
As to the original shops being discussed - in the UK even our supermarkets have many varieties of tomatoes flown in from the Continent, and the big cities at least are well stocked with independent shops which have fresh, seasonal produce, for instance the finest Italian tomatoes and Amalfi lemons, brought by lorry several times a week from markets such as Milan's. So I don't think we have so much of a gap in the market. But if I were to live near one of these places and it were open late at night, then yes I'd use it sometimes. But only when the smaller more specialist shops were shut.
May 16th, 2007, 04:26 AM
#39
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There's a certain "ambience" which has been created at Whole Foods which seems to be kind of "anti-big supermarket" although some of the stores are as big as any Safeway.
The produce seems to be displayed in what I would call a "farmer's market" sort of fashion with upturned baskets and so forth.
In a way they may very well be trying to imitate what some would call a "European style" experience (I know what I am saying is vague and subjective) and I also think there may be this "if it is pricier..if it is labeled as 'organic' or 'free range' or has this 'look' of non-mass-produced then it must be better (for you) right???? (and we can get more money for it, too).
There is no doubt in my mind that some of the stuff they sell is wonderful...the bread selection is extensive as is the cheese selection...but will Europeans go for this? I'm somehow skeptical.
The produce seems to be displayed in what I would call a "farmer's market" sort of fashion with upturned baskets and so forth.
In a way they may very well be trying to imitate what some would call a "European style" experience (I know what I am saying is vague and subjective) and I also think there may be this "if it is pricier..if it is labeled as 'organic' or 'free range' or has this 'look' of non-mass-produced then it must be better (for you) right???? (and we can get more money for it, too).
There is no doubt in my mind that some of the stuff they sell is wonderful...the bread selection is extensive as is the cheese selection...but will Europeans go for this? I'm somehow skeptical.
May 16th, 2007, 04:48 AM
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In the US, Forbes Magazine called Whole Foods "Food Porn" a couple years ago. Whole foods didn't like it, but I think it's pretty accurate. All the careful lighting and presentation of the succulent fruits and vegis.
