Bert

I'm heading to Europe for 8 days and have decided to visit Paris (Eiffel tower), Athens (Colleseum)and Pamplona (bulls)after London. Would I be better off renting a car or doing it by train?

Rex

On another travel message board which I visit from time to time - - www.lonelyplanet.com - - there are occasionally messages like this. They're usually labeled stupid American postings, and frequently they are much more outrageous than this (What do you think about the sharks in Austria?) Half the time they're intentional jokes posted to start a discussion on the geography lameness of foreign travelers/tourists and Americans, in particular. <BR> <BR>This has the ring of simple stupidity/naivete - - but fear not, Bert, we'll answer your questions. and try not to lecture you TOO much. <BR> <BR>For starters, there is no Colosseum (note spelling) in Athens. The Colosseum is in Rome. Maybe you mean the Parthenon in Athens. You couldn't connect these four points in 8 days by train if you rode continuously. (Heck I don't know if you could even connect Athens to Pamplona alone, in 8 days!) The bulls don't run continuously in Pamplona - - it's called the festival of San Fermin, which occurs July 6-14 (I think). You can no more just "pop in" one morning to see the bulls run than you can just "drop by" to see the opening of Congress (I mean both can be done, but you'll be there elbowing with a lot of other people - - and there's a lot of BS both places). <BR> <BR>Now the good news is that you can connect numerous distant points on a trip to Europe for just a few hundred dollars thanks to low cost intra-Europe airlines which didn't exist a decade or so ago. It takes planning, and perhaps a little more focus than is evident in your message, but you could actually "do" these four cities without breaking the bank. <BR> <BR>But that brings up the final politically incorrect or "stupid American" aspect of your posting. If you view your trip to Europe as a series of postcards to be collected, as a scavenger hunt of "famous" landmarks where you show up, tag the place and move on, well, how about just renting some videos at your local library. <BR> <BR>We're a snobby bunch here at Fodor's sometimes, Bert, but we really can help you see Europe in ways that are not (as readily) available on videos. <BR> <BR>I think you should eliminate Greece (or did you mean Rome) OR Spain from your plans. If you have plenty of money, and are content to fly, you can still go to London and Paris before your third country (whichever one you keep). While I wince at saying it, you CAN "see" Paris and London superficially - - without getting into their respective cultures - - just show up for one of the various tour buses. Or even wander London with a map and scarcely a clue where you're going. It will be fun and interesting, no matter what you see or don't see. For your third country, get yourself one or two good books, Read them cover to cover. Ask us some more questions about the place, and we'll help you put together an itinerary. <BR> <BR>Final thought, if your facility with foreign languages isn't stellar, but you still want to see antiquities, they're all over Europe, including the British Isles. You don't have to go to Crete to see the remains of Pompeii (wink!) <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex

Bert

Thanks Rex for the info. Yous seems real smart. Please consider that I have never been to Europe before. I will be arriving in London, and Pamplona and Athens are musts. Paris is a second priority. I do know that the Collesseum(TEMPLE or Acropolis)in Athens is in better shape than the Italian one. I will probably fly to the 4 cities.

Lara

Bert, the best indication of intelligence is knowing what one doesn't know...... and for lord's sake, doing a little homework before opening one's mouth. <BR> <BR>But lest this turn into another trash-Americans useless thread, I'd like to pick up a legitimate question embedded in Bert's global query: Is it possible nowadays to take the train to Athens? Is the route clear, safe, and traveled regularly by passenger rail service? <BR> <BR>Rex, or anyone else:

Rex

Bert, <BR> <BR>I'd hate to see this thread turn into something where no one learns anything. <BR> <BR>No one will care to read or post if it is just me talking to you, and you responding without thinking or reading anything. <BR> <BR>Since you are "sure" you want to go to Athens (I actually don't know how you COULD be sure), please get access to some kind of book about Athens, and learn at least a tiny bit about what you think you want to see. <BR> <BR>The PARTHENON (a building) is located on the ACROPOLIS (a hill), and it is NOT in better shape than the Colosseum. Neither one is a "functional" building anymore, though the Colosseum could serve as a place to give a lecture (wouldn't need a roof for that, and there are plenty of still perfectly useful "seats"). The Parthenon is beautiful but it isn't "good for anything" any more than a meadow is (a suitable place to worship. <BR> <BR>You ought to consider the merits of going to Rome, if for no other reason to "connect the dots" on your scavenger hunt. You can get good air fares from London to Athens, from Athens to Italy (various destinations), from Rome to Madrid, from Madrid back to London, and there is plenty of good connection from London to Paris. Yopu ought to get familiar with www.europebyair.com - - and you might as well arrange your transatlantic travel to come home from Paris. It may be possible to arrange London as a "stopover" with your "real" destination becoming Athens. This is hardly an itinerary to set up for a rookie, but I don't suppose that will deter you. You will probably just overpay. <BR> <BR>As for Lara's question, I'm sure that the war hasn't resulted in ALL train travel to Greece stopping, but I'm also sure it's a lot more difficult and expensive. The RailEuropeUSA website - - www.raileurope.com - - lists all these routes as valid: <BR> <BR>Vienna-Budapest <BR>Budapest-Sofia <BR>Sofia-Thessaloniki <BR>Thessaloniki-Athens <BR> <BR>So I'm sure you can do it. But why? <BR> <BR>Rex

Paulo

If I remember correctly, you wanted to experiment safe, clean and English speaking cities in your first trip to Europe ... right, Bert? <BR> <BR>Don't know about Pamplona ... but I felt pretty safe in London, Paris and Athens. Regarding language, you may get along with English in both Paris and Athens but ... it surely ain't like London. Now, I wouldn't call Athens a clean city, specially now with the huge work on infrastructure going on in preparation for the Olympic Games ... <BR> <BR>Do yourself a favor, follow Rex's advice and leave Athens for another opportunity ... the money and time you'll spare will fill a very good savings pot start for your future trip to Athens, which you may extend to the Greek islands and/or to Turkey! <BR> <BR>If you're really interested in archaeology, while in London, visit the British Museum and get a shot at the friezes of the Parthenon (half of them - the best ones - are not in Athens, if you don't know) and some other Greek goodies at close range ... <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

BOB THE NAVIGATOR

Rex, So much learned advise for what to <BR>me is an obvious tounge-in-cheek question. This guy cannot be serious. <BR>Tell us Bert---you must be laughing your <BR>tail off,is this how you get your kicks?

Rex

"Learned"? - - oh, how I love your flattering me, Little Bob! <BR> <BR>I figure most of what I posted was essentially a soliloquy -b-but what the heck, if other readers get something interesting out of it, that's good enough. And I always learn something myself. I didn't know that Sofia-Thessaloniki is a valid route before today!