Greg

I am a longtime reader and really enjoy the forum, so thanks to everyone for all the info over the years. I have learned SO much. <BR> <BR>Two questions. I am hoping to go to the U.K. next summer. I am researching my geneaology and particularly want to go to Glasgow where my Scottish ancestors are from. Just out of curiousity, are Gaelic and Scottish (not English) spoken much at all in Scotland? Other than just plain interest, would there be any practical reason to learn any? <BR> <BR>Secondly, London! It will be my first visit. What gives? People seem to absolutely love it or absolutely hate it. How is that possible? <BR> <BR>Thanks all. Sorry about not putting my e-mail address. I will when I am a bit more confident!!!

frank

Gaelic is still spoken, though only in some rural parts, notably in the Hebrides, where it is still commonly spoken & is the first language for many. <BR>It is difficult to learn, having very little connection with anything you already know.You will see it in many place names. <BR>The Scottish language developed roughly in parallel with, but separately from, English - many of the roots were the same, but the vocabulary & pronunciation were totally different.Modern Scottish is more like an extreme dialect of English, we lose many old words with every generation. <BR>In Glasgow, try to eavesdrop in a bar.You will not understand a single word, the dialect is too heavy.In other parts of Scotland it can be much clearer(& more pleasant to the ear!) <BR>People will adjust their language if they realise you are a tourist! <BR>There is not much practical point in learning any, but you may find it fun to pick up a few phrases. <BR> <BR>

Thyra

Greg, I am sure you will find other Fodorites who know more about this then I do but this was my experience in Scotland. We were in Glasgow, Edinborough, Inverness and many, many lovely towns in between. Also I was there in the 80's backpacking. You will find that, at least in the locations I visited, a large percentage of the street signs are bi-lingual, (Same in Rep. of Ireland and Wales) I believe a lot of people learn some Gaelic (I think in Ireland it used to be a required course at the elementary school level). I think everyone I met in Scotland knew a word or two of Gaelic, some slang if not more but I did not encounter people speaking fluently to each other in Scotland (I did see people conversing completely in Gaelic in Galway and near Caernerfon (spelling?) in Wales. I would venture to guess that there are hidden pockets of Gaelic speakers in Scotland, I just did not find them. I hope this helps you, have a nice trip.

wes fowler

Greg, <BR>I can't really respond to any of the questions you raise, but I have a thought or two regarding why London is either loved or hated. I would imagine the bulk of the "lovers" of London come from large metropolitan areas, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and are not intimidated by the sheer size of the city. I would expect that those with an interest in history, English literature and theatre are equally comfortable in London. Conversely, I would expect the tourist, if a first timer or from a large non-urban area could easily be overwhelmed by London to the point of "hating" it. The latter group may be lulled into a false sense of security beforehand believing that English language and customs are no different than America's, only to find pavement signs warning "Look right", people willingly and patiently queuing up for buses and taxis; strange voices in the underground saying "Mind the gap!" whatever that's supposed to mean. In short, both culture and urban shock.

IrnBru

Greg <BR>I was just in Glasgow last month and was very interested to hear that there's been quite a resurgence of the learning of Gaelic (pronounced GAL ick) There are Gaelic elementary schools opening, so Scots can be more fluent. <BR> <BR>By the way -- I had NO trouble understanding anyone in Glasgow -- though that's probably because I was raised (in the US) by Glaswegian parents. <BR>

KT

There is, to some extent, a resurgence of Gaelic in Scotland. However, you're unlikely to find it outside of the highlands and western islands for the simple reason that the lowlands are not traditionally Gaelic-speaking. Below the highland line, Scots was, by and large, the indigenous tongue. <BR> <BR>There is an endless controversy over whether Scots is a dialect or a language. Politics often substitutes for linguistics on both sides of this debate. <BR> <BR>As Frank says, there is quite a bit of Gaelic in place names, and if you're interested in that sort of thing you might want to get a book on the derivation of Scottish placenames. (They're available in Scottish bookstores.) For a small country, Scotland has a pretty complicated past, and the placenames indicate where the Picts were as opposed to where the Scots were. (Not to mention the Angles and the Norse, and the Romans, and....) <BR> <BR>BTW, the local Celtic language in Wales is Welsh, not Gaelic. <BR>

Tony Hughes

Sorry but have yet to see any bi-lingual road signs anywhwere in Scotland. Granted I dont often venture much further than Inverness but there are NONE in Edinburgh (or Edinborough come to that), Glasgow or anywhere in the South or Central belt. <BR> <BR>A part of my job is to design road signs for a living - never come across this, Thyra. When you mention street sighns what aexactly are you talking about? Shops? Street names? Places?

frank

Bilingual signs (or in many places Gaelic only signs) are standard in the Western Isles (Ouer Hebrides).This a can be confusing -eg Castlebay becomes Bagh a Chaistle (sp?) <BR>Most people in the UK don't realise how strong the Gaelic language and culture is in the Hebrides.(especially strong in the outer isles) <BR>They very are dumbfounded to hear it spoken in the street, it really is the first language - until recently there were still a few old people who had little English. <BR>Gaelic was heavily suppressed until recently - children were punished if they spoke it in school - not easy to silence a tounge learned at your mother's knee.The revival means we actually have a few Gaelic TV programs but the future of the language is in question.The change from infra dig to PC has come too late.Note that the language is tied up with it's own culture. <BR>Try www.Hebrides.com for Gaelic links.

arjay

We, too, had a few encounters in Scotland where we could barely understand the (English-speaking) Scots for the thick burr. Very embarrassing. But what a great time you will have, Greg! <BR> <BR>And bravo to Wes for putting his finger on the London issue. We are (well, were) big-city (Chicago) folk, and even our second trip to London, when we were somewhat prepared, still left us...well, not quite reeling, but def a bit overwhelmed. As my NYC bred spouse commented, "This place makes New York look like a hamlet!" It is so huge, with so much to see and, true, the culture 'change' is probably more than most ppl expect since they're travelling to another English-speaking country. I loved the idea I gleaned on another thread here recently, of making a day/place/locale grid for your visit, and recording pertinent info for those places you really think you want to see. It's an approach that I think would really help you prioritize, as well as organize.

love2trvl

Hi Greg: <BR>I found that the Scots are more than happy to repeat themselves when not understood by American Tourists. I think they are actually amused. <BR>As for London, someone who is not from a Large City like NYC or Chicago needs to go with a bit of adventure in their soul. Good guide books and maps of the Undeground are necessities. I never did master the London Transport(buses) That will have to be for another visit. I loved London! I will be going again and again! Good Luck and enjoy your adventure!

Gordon R

You'll find Michael Munro's book "The Patter" a useful - but not very serious - introduction to modern Glaswegian dialect. Not sure whether it's still in print, but worth a try if you're interested. Incidentally, modern dialects like Glaswegian are not to be confused with languages such as Gaelic, or even historical dialects such as the Old Scots spoken by our national poet Robert Burns. <BR> <BR>If you're in to geneology, make sure you take in a visit to the Scottish Records Office in Edinburgh. Do phone ahead though as you need to book a table in busy periods.

Mike

As an aside, there is a view that the finest, purest speakers of English are, in fact, Highland Scots (I am not Scottish).

Thyra

See Greg, I knew that there would be many more people out there who could really give a good response to this question. Thanks for clearing up my confusion KT regarding Welsh/Gaelic. <BR>Good to know. Tony, I wish I could give you a more specific answer as to where exactly I saw the bi-lingual signs. I seem to recall them being further north and in more rural areas, but again, my office is doing a terrific job of destroying my brain, so I suppose I could be mistaken. I wonder if anyone else saw bi-lingual signs in Scotland. I certainly hope so... or I really am loosing it.