Margaret Washington

Eva, your response to me simply proves my caution in giving my e-mail address is warranted. What did I say that made you respond so -- dare I say it? -- rudely? "Yes, you're right, Eva, some Italians don't wait their turn"? (I guess you don't want to consider cultural differences.) "If they didn't want to serve you, all you can do is walk out"? (Excuse me, but I thought that someone who orders "bread" might not realize that the waiters often eat in the restaurant before dinner service begins. OK, you've convinced me, you *should* have been locked out of the place.) "You owed the cabbie the fare"? (OK, I'll take your word for it, L15000 is too high for a 2-block cab ride; so what should the fare have been? Don't forget surcharges for time of day, a second passenger, pickup at the train station, luggage -- so, how much did the cabbie rob from you? BTW, in DC, a 2-block ride can cost more than a 10-block ride.) Eva, we all have difficulties in travelling, but we aren't helped in coping by imagining that those unruly natives are out to get us.

Juan

I *adore* Italy myself. Never have had any problems there and I've been there many, many times. Venice is my favorite city in the world. I have found people there very friendly and have often had long conversations in the streets with various local dog owners or long talks with shop keepers and hotel managers. I speak fluent Italian but I think it's even more that I *smile* at people and am friendly to them. You get back what you give out.

Maira

Yes, Juan, nobody has ever been unfairly treated; and if they have is because they were looking for it. Sure...and I am sure the Jewish holocaust never happened either.

elvira

For once, it's not the French who are getting ripped a new one.. <BR>Big cities breed contemptible people (more so than smaller cities) but some citizens buck the trend: I've been ripped off in NYC, and I've had a nice shopkeeper take care of me when I had a bad case of the dizzies. In London, I had really crummy service in a Chinese restaurant, and I've had a restaurant open up a few minutes early 'cause it was pouring rain while we waited outside the door. In Paris, well, I could go on - but I've had a waiter pour a little extra wine into the glass "'cause the bottle was almost empty", and a shopkeeper run next door to get someone who could speak English (leaving me alone in her store) because my French wasn't up to snuff. In Bergerac, the clerk in the train station told us there was no way to get to Perigueux without going to Paris first; a while later (so the other guy didn't see), another clerk came over and told us which train to take to go directly to Perigueux. In Milan, we were accosted by pickpocket/beggars and ignored in a restaurant, and then made a fuss over in a small restaurant near the canal because we were Americans and Americans never had been in the restaurant. In San Francisco, I've been cheated by a shopkeeper and I've had a cabbie tell me to walk the block or so, that I really didn't need a cab (he was right). I chalk up rude to big cities; having lived in Boston for a several years, and now having lived in the glorious Southwest, I know my attitudes have changed dramatically. <BR>And, just like the Soup Nazi's "no soup for you one year", the Traveling Loons have "no tarts for you". Long, not-funny-at-the-time-but-now-a-scream story from - you guessed it - Paris.

dan woodlief

Elvira reminded me of an experience in Prague when I experienced "no cab for you" from the "taxi Nazis" at the train station. Made the decision easier to make. I found out how to use the tram and literally saved a bundle. Turned out my hotel was also much closer than I had thought. <BR> <BR>I agree with others that you can probably attribute the attitudes you experienced to being in a big city. Still, there are many nice and helpful people in cities too.

DAWN

Why is it that big cities always get the blame, as if somehow they breed ruder individuals. My grandmother lives in the Bronx, NYC, and I've met and come in contact with some of the nicest, most genuine people, you'd ever want to meet. I've also been treated extremely rude while visiting a small town in North Carolina. What does this mean? It means, that people, are people. I don't believe that a area or region, or country breeds rude people. I think it can temper ones personality and attitude, but again, that is a generalization. My husband is from Tuscany, and we've met some real characters. Yes, some people in Italy are rude, indifferent, etc., but some are fabulous. It depends on the situation, as always. I've been to many shops, restuarants, etc. in Italy and people bend over backwards for you, I've also been to those places where they could care less, and in that case, I take my money elsewhere. But unfortunately, people being people, you cannot control this behavior in italy or anywhere else. Maybe while we're discussing this, we should look at how people in this country (USA) not only treat each other, but also any visitors we might have. I was at Haagen-Daz the other day, and I ordered an ice cream. First, the kid behind the counter never even acknowledged me, gave me an incredibly small scoop at $2.95 each, and never bothered to say thank you or anything. For $2.95 I deserve a thank-you. I won't go back. If someone is rude to you, I've learned, hit them where it counts. And it is true about Italians cutting in line, etc., even my husband can't believe it and he gets mad. Try not to let it bother you.

Margaret Washington

Zoey, I don't think that most of the people who responded are saying, "Eva did something wrong." In response to what I interpreted as Eva's sincere request for comment, I'm saying, "Abroad is Different." Of course, it's right, proper and just to wait your turn. Eva put her finger on a difference in conduct; I simply proposed an explanation other than Eva's claim that Italians "don't understand the concept of waiting." Eva can try to teach them through example, or (as I advised) she can edge forward and seize her chance. It's not pleasant to be denied service -- assuming that you've arrived at the restaurant between the opening and last order times -- but what can you do besides shrug it off and walk away? On our last trip to Venice we tried to enter an old favorite of ours for lunch, but were asked by the proprietor to come back later, because she was expecting workers to come for their meals at that time of day. (Tell *her* who her bread and butter is.) We believed what she told us (were we suckers?) but we regretfully decided to go elsewhere. We were sorry we couldn't eat at a place so loyal to its regulars -- one of the signs of a good restaurant. I almost never take taxis, but I don't blame the driver if I don't trouble myself to learn the fare structure ahead of time, and before I'd cry "robbery" over the equivalent of $8.33, I'd try to find out what a fair fare would have been. No doubt tourists are cruelly abused at times, but we should at least consider the possibility that we could get rid of that bad taste in our mouths if we just pulled out our thumbs.

Baby Herman

Hey I like that line! "we could get rid of that bad taste in our mouths if we just pulled out our thumbs." <BR> <BR>That says a lot. Lest we insert our own foot where the thumb was. <BR> <BR>If Italy sucks so bad, stop going there instead of trying to change their culture. If you feel mistreated, don't spend your money there. The rest of us would like for Italy to be less crowded when we visit.

Marlene

I just can't resist joining in the "kafuffle." My husband and I consider ourselves Italophiles. We've been in and out of Italy since 1972. My husband lost his wallet to a very clever pick-pocket on a train. A very well dressed pick-pocket tried to take my wallet in the vegetable market in Torino. I felt his hand under my arm, as he reached for what was actually my key case in an outside pocket of my purse and elbowed him out of the way, looked him in the eye and yelled to the entire market place in English, "this S.___of a B._____ is trying to pick my pocket!" I was astounded at all the knowing smiles from the vendors around me. He just smiled at me, bowed and went on his way. I've been stopped by the "Lollypop cops" for running a yellow light when locals breeze red lights. He just wanted to visit with the obviously American lady. We've been treated royally and roughly in restaurants. Most of is is just funny. I think it really depends on your and their digestion that particular day. They have a cure for that in most places: order a "digestivo." Hold your nose when you drink it. I think in general the shops are so strange to Americans because they really are accustomed to serving rather than our "help-yourself" style. Then, if you don't speak pretty fluent Italian, you can be ignored, because, I think, they are as uncomfortable as we are. My favorite spots for shopping are Rinaschente department store and for less expensive, Standa. A rather up scale 5 & 10. <BR> <BR>Impatience is not limited to Italians. My son-in-law absolutely refuses to stand in a line. That has some interesting ramifications. Eva, I'd love to tell you it won't happen again, but I'd also like to suggest that you go again. Try to stay a little longer and I'll bet this time you'll feel more comfortable and begin to find some of those really nice, helpful people you've been reading about. Good luck.

Dawn

Eva, <BR>I enjoy the slower pace of dining in Italy, but there were times that the service seemed a bit better for the Italians at nearby tables. The funny thing is that tourists are expected to tip (above the standard coverage charge) while Italians are not. (At least that is what several guidebooks said - maybe they were wrong.) After a week of getting both excellent and poor service I decided that I was not going to tip 10% extra unless the service warranted it. The waiters there definitely did not work for tips only, as US waiters do, so they were not always as eager to make you happy. But the food is so good there...

Jolene

On our recent trip to Europe, we had a variety of experiences with people--awful to great. On the awful side, our reservations were not honored in a SMALL town in France even though the innkeepers had promised by phone and e-mail that the rooms would be kept late for us since we were driving from Belgium. This was during the solar eclipse and there were no other rooms available for 200km. He was very disagreeable--rude actually. But, as a US traveler, I expected a hotel with a web-site to be open late. (don't ask me why--just a silly assumption) I had tried to call to let him know we had been delayed, but again as a novice traveler did not know how to operate the pay phone yet. We ended up experiencing a horrible night trying to find rooms; driving through France and Germany in the rain, getting lost in the countryside. I could have entirely blamed the innkeeper for this experience, but I think I own some of the blame. (I did make suggestions via his web site after our return to include information about the latest times guests can check in---and a few others) <BR>But on the great side after driving all night to Switzerland,a waitress in Interlaken convinced the cook to open for breakfast at 5:30am so we could eat and the hotel owners at our nex stop let us into our rooms early so we could sleep. In Italy a waitress walked me to a hairdresser's shop so I could have my hair done, the landlady of our apartment invited us up to her apartment for vin santo and a very special cake that is only made in Siena. In Brussels a shopkeeper left his shop to get someone to help us with directions to a bed and breakfast; a customer at a gas station piloted us through the maze of tiny streets in Brussels out to the freeway; a music store owner in a smaller city drove 30 km to his shop on SUNDAY to sell my son the guitar of his dreams. He also helped us find a very nice hotel. <BR>Had we focused on the experiences we felt were rude or otherwise disagreeable , I think our overall experience would have been less than wonderful. <BR> <BR>I agree that anytime we have a negative experience with people, it does leave a bad taste in our mouths; especially if we were not expecting it or feel we didn't deserve the treatment we got. I sympathize with you, Eva. We have chalked our negative experience up to "experience" and will not let that deter us from travel to cities or small towns in France, Italy or the USA. I hope your will, too.

Valerie

I am sure that many of us Americans who have travelled to many cities in Europe has experienced little problems because we assume things would be one way and find something different. But I think the point is the "rude" behavior in "Italy" as first posted. Speaking for myself only, I have been to many cities in Europe over the past 15 years several specific ones many times. I have found instances where people were rude or mean all over including here in New York City. But I must agree with Eva, in that my husband and myself were treated bad on several occassions in Venice over a three day period. Again, I assume that it was the end of the tourist season and they had had enough of tourists. But I think some of the well travelled people on this forum know the difference between situations that happen (setbacks) and the people being rude, nasty and mean.

Denise

Eva, I am glad you posted. My husband and I visited Turkey and Italy last year and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. The Turks were wonderful people, the Romans likewise, the Tuscans RUDE, the Venetians lovely. <BR>I loved Tuscany and hope to return, but was totally put off by the local shopkeepers and waiters. It seemed that while they seemd not to wantto assist, but they certainly were eager to take our money. A lady in a ceramics shop was horrid, and the local salesman behind the deli counter in the supermarket deserved the award for Rudest Italian in Tuscany. The service was another complaint we had, but when in Rome do as.......... <BR>None of this would be acceptable in Australian retail outlets. <BR> We allowed none of this to ruin our holiday, in fact it did the opposite, we went to see what they were like. <BR>

Ben

I ignored this message when I first saw it a few weeks ago, thinking it was just another example of people stereotyping people (like we often do to the Parisians). After all, I went to Italy in 1997 and had a great time and liked the people, for the most part. <BR> <BR>However, I just came back from a 9-day stay (keep in mind that I was in NYC for several days the week before) and their are more rude people in Italy than Manhattan, hands down. Three times Italians cut blatantly in front of me while I was standing in line (they don't even look at you when they do it--once, TWO NUNS did it to me--can you imagine?) And I confirmed everything awful that I had heard about Naples--words cannot describe how sleazy the people are there. <BR> <BR>There were many very nice people, as well, just like anywhere, but I was a bit surprised by the rude and/or aggressive behavior.

martha python

"Three times Italians cut blatantly in front of me while I was standing in line (they don't even look at you when they do it--once, TWO NUNS did it to me--can you imagine?)" <BR> <BR>Well, yes, I imagine--can you imagine that not every culture has the same reverence for lines that we do? I admit I'm a line-lover, and I find it irritating at first (and then I remember I'm in an LQI--low queue incidence--country). If the price of great food and art is learning to mill, well, sign me up.

Beth

I have to say in my 2 1/2 weeks in Italy I did not run into much of the rudeness or thievery that some posters seem to have. I did have people cut in front of me in line, but I had learned to expect this. It IS a cultural difference, not simple rudeness. Italians just don't do lines. Its not the way they behave. So when it happened, I just relaxed, and made sure the next person couldn't get in front of me. <BR> <BR>In restaurants, I found Italian wait staff, for the most part, far more professional than their American counterparts. They were not overly friendly. They never came to the table and said "Good Afternoon! Welcome to Chili's! My Name is Mario, and I'll be your server today, may I bring you a cocktail?" This kind of psuedo-friendliness that is practiced in American Chain restauraunts really irks me. Italian waiters were sometimes brusque, but at least in my small experience they were nearly always efficient. They also seemed to work far more tables than and American waiter would. They were much better at making sure the wine glass stayed full, the water glass stayed full, that the food came to the table hot, that their was clean silver for each course. About the only issue was the slowness of bringing the check. But that's cultural too. They think you should linger over coffee, and always took a very long time to bring the bill. <BR> <BR>We took taxis in Rome and in Florence. In both cities the rules about surcharges were extensive, and were posted in the cabs. We also spent over 10,000 lira for a very short taxi ride fom the train station to our hotel. But paying about 7 dollars to avoid dragging my luggage a couple blocks seems worth it. After all, in the US I would probably tip a bellhop $3 just for rolling it up the elevator to my room!

Beth

Martha, I love that "low queue incidence" country! For what its worth Greece is also LQI. Perhaps thats why I'm tolerant of it, its in the blood

sera

Ben: Would you elaborate on your statement about Naples: "words cannot describe how sleazy the people are there." I've had only good experiences there, contrary to the stereotypes and horror stories. Yes, you have to be on your guard, but you have to be that way in New York, too. Wonder what happened to you to elicit this response.

Jimmy

No one seems to realize that tourists interfere with the normal routine of Italians,French, etc. How would you feel if you had to put up with all the inconvience that we cause? Lines are very long at train stations, Post offices, etc. because, again, we interfere with their routine. They are forced to give up their cities during the season. And,please, don't give me that- "If we didn't spend our money there, where would they be." Very happy, I'm afraid. So the next time a couple of nuns get in front of you, be gracious and smile. After all, we are the intruders.

elvira

For LQI, visit Malta. My sister dubbed it "Willynillyville". Adapting to it was half the fun of the trip. <BR> <BR>I live in the part of the country that, from November thru April, is inundated with tourists - both American and foreign. They drive Winnebagos the size of aircraft carriers through our rush hour traffic, then loudly voice "That's NOT how we do it in New York/Chicago/ Detroit". They wear crispy pink jogging suits into our nice restaurants, and he never takes off his souvenir ten-gallon hat. They push their way in front of us at the supermarket and saloon, and wave their hands and cough loudly when we light up in the smoking area. No wonder the Italians/French/whoever don't like American tourists very much - **I** don't like 'em either! <BR>By the way, who invented lines?