Anna

I just returned after 15 days in Greece(Athens, Delphi, Peloponesse, Santorini, Crete) I will be glad to answer questions and suggest best roads to archeology buffs. <BR>

Maira

Anna, for my 40th birthday (and wedding anniversary), I asked my husband for a trip to Greece (that'll give him a head start!). I am fascinated by history, can you elaborate on the archeological sites you visited? How do you prepared for ths trip?

Paulo

How long do you have to prepare yourself before going, Maira? It took me more than a year ... and it wasn't enough, I must say, though we had to prepare for Turkey as well! <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

Thyra

Hi Anna, I hope you had a great trip. If you wouldn't mind a few logistics questions, here goes. How did you get to Delphi and how long did I take to get there? Did they have guides at the Delphi site, or did you do it yourself or take a group? If you visited Epididarus (sp?) do they actually have live plays there and if so? Do you know where I could get the schedule if such a thing exists? And can you suggest any unique archeology sites that maybe get overlooked by the masses? Thanks

Anna

I spens about 6 weeks planning a trip, mostly by Internet. I wish I did a couple things differently, but it was more logistical, than planning mistakes. <BR>First of all, make sure that your travel companion loves history as much as you do or you start feeling guilty and skip some sites you may want to visit. <BR>We spend 4 days in Athens. You may want to buy a tour for night in the city (check this web site www.hopin.com you can buy tickets in your hotel or tourist offices.) Make sure that you will get to Acropolis and/or Agore early, around 8, before tourists groups. <BR>From Agora take a 30 walk to Keramikos. Tour buses do not get there and most of the stellaes are in Archealogical Museum, but if you nobody watches and you pretty much can explore every stone. Same goes to Elevsine, it is almost empty and you can see elevsine symbols carved in stone - ornaments with wheat and poppies. <BR>Absolutely must - Sounion. Don't take regular bus - it took us 3 hours to get there, becuse of the stops, and then we were worried to miss a bus back , and last bus left in 15 minutes before sundown. You dont want to drive in Athens in darkness - my advice to take a tour with a swim. <BR>After Athens we rent a car and went to Delphi. It took us 4 hours to get there, but we lost 1 hour in Thebes. <BR>Dont be fooled by name - it Thebes is dreadful.I was so glad that we get out of there that I didn't even stopped near Elektra wall (BTW should be interesting) <BR>Follow National road even, near Thebes you will see Cheronean lion. We spend night in Delphi and I highly recommend it. Delphi gorgeous and you should see then both in sundown and in the morning. <BR>Then we drive from Delphi to Rion-Antirion car ferry and cross to Peloponess. View was lovely , it took us ~ 3 hours ro get to the ferry and 20 min to get to another side. <BR>Our big mistake was that we went to Nafplion after that. I advice to spend next night in Olympia. If you get out of Delphi at 12 you can be at Olympia before 4, so you can take a look at temple in the evening and/or next morning. After Olympia, you can go to south to Nestor palace(missed it and very sorry), the go through Kalamata to Sparta, But make sure to detour to temple of Appollo Bassae(not many tourists there.) Nothing interesting is Sparta, but still.. Don't even think to stay in place like Kalamata, Tripoli or Sparta - they are dreadful. From Sparta through Kalamata to Nafplion and you can stay there for a few days. I wanted to visit Asine, Nessenia and Tegea, but there was a rebellion on my ship. Right near Nafplion there is Tiryns, make sure that you will visit tolo tombs, tours do not go there, but they are amasingly well preserved, follow signs on the road. <BR>Mycenae, Epidavros and Corinth full of tourists - couple advices spend at least 2 days, take a flashlight(tunnels!!!), in Epidauros most of the tours go only to theatre - make sure to go to the site itself.I think that there is a festifal in Epidauros in July/August, but when we were there, only toursist and guides, who tried to sing or read a poem(oooh!) <BR>Nobody seems to get there but I advice you to go to Argos and Nemea. In Nema they just startred excavation and it is kind of interesting to watch and try to guess, what is under that hill. In Argos Roman theatre, agora and terms - nobody there, and you can feel like you just discovered it. <BR>I hope I didn't bore you to much, if I didn't answer any questions, don't hesitate to ask. <BR>PS: Crete is gorgeous, dont miss it <BR>

Paulo

Unless one's solely into archaeology, IMO Greece translates into problem for the first time visitor. Along with the ancient archaeological sites, there's Bizantine Greece, quaint small and not so small towns, beautiful landscape, good food and nice places to spend evenings and, why not, some shopping around. It's a difficult task to balance this out. <BR> <BR>For instance, very near Delphi there's quaint Arakhova and the outstanding Osios Loukas Monastery (not to mention the Daphne Monastery which in principle could be visitied on one's way from Athens). Very near Sparta (which IMO should be the least of priorities, except maybe for a lunch at Diethnes if one happens to be there at the time) is Mystra, which one should not miss. <BR> <BR>Now, suppose one was able to get to Olympia to spend the night, hopefully having already visited the site in the late afternoon and is readdy to leave in the early morning. There's no way one can visit the temple in Bassae, go on to Nstor's palace, east to Mystras and north to Nafplio in a single day. Either one plans to spend a night in Pylos (if there's somebody who recommends it - we haven't been there) or one has to plan to use wonderful Nafplio as a base (I agree with Anna regrading Tripolis and Sparta and believe her regarding Kalamata). Now, in principle one could leave Olympia, visit the temple in Bassae, then on to Nestor's Palace and to Nafplio. I estimate the total driving time around 6 hours. One would then visit Mystras/Sparta on a daytrip out of Nafplio. On the other hand, one would be missing beautiful Langadhia on the way from Olympia to Nafplio. Another alternative, would be to visit the temple in Bassae out of Olympia, return and go on to Nafplio through Langhadia. But then it would be almost impossible to visit both, Mystras and the Nestor Palace in the same day (the driving time involved would read about 7 hours). <BR> <BR>When we toured Delphi and the Peloponnese in summer 1998, we got a late start in Athens (AutoEurope didn't have a car to deliver in the morning). When we got to Daphne it had just closed (3pm). We also stopped in Thebes (just because my wife was not momentarily feeling ok). Agree with Anna ... dreadful! We next stopped in Arakhova and then on to the hotel in Delphi. We drove to the site in the early evening for first look and sneaked in the Athena Pronaia Sanctuary on the other side of the road (relative to the main site). Then we retuned to Arakhova for dinner (much nicer than Delphi itself). Next morning we went to the site at opening time ... (just about nobody there) and after visiting the museum we had a snack lunch just accross the Castalian Fountain. One last stroll in the Athena Pronaia sanctuary and off (we had already checked out of the hotel) to Osios Loukas. Next, we used the same itinerary as Anna (Rio-Antirio crossing) and drove into Patras for the night ... mistake! Olympia would certainly be better even though we were kind of late. Next day, after visiting Olympia we made a detour back and forth to the temple in Bassae (in all we were 8 people there, 4 of our party) and on to Nafplio via Langhadia (very nice). In Nafplio we stayed 3 nights. We used one day to visit Micenae (huge site for who wishes to visit it all) and Argos (as Anna describes it), one other for a day trip to Mystras. Tyrins was just accross the road from the hotel. The rest of the time we enjoyed Nafplio. We didn't make it to Nemea. After the 3rd night, we visited Tolos (a summer resort ... cute but not a big deal) and went on to Epidavros (once again, as Anna describes ... a summer festival was indeed on, at night, but I understand that most of it are plays in ancient Greek!). We had planned to visit Akrocorinth on the way back to Athens but our ladies preferred to skip it and have a little more time (shopping) in Athens before catching a ferry to Santorini. We gave the Daphne Monastery a last shot but we lost ourselves just enough time to miss it by 5 minutes once again. <BR> <BR>So, Anna, we also missed Nestor's palace but think we didn't regret it ... it's a question of priorities and, as you note, I can't say that our party was uniform with respect to history. <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

Maira

Hey Paulo! I got a year to go (I'll turn 38 in a couple of weeks). I already started reading guidebooks, but I am having a hard time relating distances between sites and associated enroute time estimates. I am inclined to a cruise vs. the independent touring we always do. Any comments on this? <BR> <BR>Paulo, Thyra, and Anna: the info you have posted is amazing. Thanks for taking the time.

Maira

....oops, make that 39 (Freudian slip...?!!!).

Thyra

Anna and Paulo! Thanks so so much for all the info. You have given me tons of advice and ideas (like avoiding Thebes!) <BR>Our trip is in October, and I did not consider hiring a car to get to Delphi, I just assumed we would take the bus from Athens, but now I am considering it. We plan to spend one night in Delphi and but then we have to get back to Athens by 5 pm. I am just wary of renting a car in Athens... no make that really scared. Can you get a car outside of the city? Also, when you went to the sites did you take group tours, private guides, books or did you rely on your own knowlege of the sites? Again, thanks for all the info.

Thyra

PS Maira, we started planning this last September! What we are doing is seeing some Mainland sites, flying to the Cyclades and back then we've chartered a yacht with another couple (nearly same per diem as hotel+transpo, when split 4 ways) to visit the Peloponesse and some of the Saronic Gulf islands. None of us have the slightest sailing experience.. Should be interesting to say the least. I will be publishing a full report upon our return... presuming I am still in a condition to write.... (that's a joke)knock on wood anyway... I am interested in how your plans shape up.

jane

what hotels/areas did you stay at in crete and santorini? how did you get from one to the other island? thanks!

Paulo

Strangely enough, Thyra, we didn't have any problems at all driving out/into Athens. Our original plans called for getting the car early in the morning (Auto Europe office opening hour), and drive slowly to Delphi visiting the Daphne Monastery and Eleusis on our way. We also intended to visit the main site (Sacred Way and Sanctuary of Apolo) on arrival and leave whatever we couldn't see to the next morning. Thus, instead of taking the E75 divided Autoroute north, we had planned to take the E94 Autoroute as if we were going to Corinth and then take the deviation to Thiva (Thebes - where one would also get by taking the E75 ... so one can hardly avoid ... one doesn't need to spend time there, though). We went to AutoEurope office the day before to make sure we had a car and we learned that they were very sorry but would be able to deliver it only at 2pm (we did get a free upgrade and a free one day rental in case we wished on our last day in Athens when returning from Istanbul before flying home ...). Under the circumstances, we used the morning to visit the Archaelogical Museum in Athens (amazingly not that many visitors and certainly a must) and decided to take the planned route (axing Eleusis and trying to get to Daphne in time). All we had to do was look for the E94/Corinth/Patras/etc signs that were all over the place. Once one gets to the Saronic Gulf, one has to deviate northwest (E962) at a certain point but we missed it ... we soon realized our error, traced back and finally got on route. Though we didn't drive to the airport (which I take where you're going after Delphi) I can't see any problems with that either ... much more complicated was for us to drive to the Piraeus (we wanted to check where our ferry was to leave) and drive back into the city center to deliver our car (close to the Acropolis). We didn't take a guide ... the relevant section of the Blue Guide Greece is very extensive in historical background and site description including maps (I had studied the site so much at home that I felt I could serve as a guide myself <BR> <BR>Maira, if what you asked your husband is actually a 2nd honey moon ... sure, go ahead and take a relaxed cruise IMO, though, it will hardly do your history fascination any justice at all. Go independent, visit some of the mainland and then choose a couple of islands to take it easy and to celebrate your wedding aniversary <BR> <BR>You posed an interesting question ... when you used the word "prepare" instead of "plan". Don't know if it was intentional or not. It took me more than a year to prepare. Once I was prepared the actual planning was a piece of cake. <BR> <BR>I first made a list of the "starred" sites as given by the Michelin Green (worth a journey and worth a detour). The I went about studying why this sites were starred. I soon understood that I knew just about nothing on Greek history, mythology, etc. All I knew was from high school and scratches of mythology (to understand some of the sculptures and Renaissance paintings in Italy). Once we were also visiting Turkey (where the best preserved ancient Greek cities lay) I got one book that versed over ancient Greek society, its organization, how life went about, etc., and a book on Greek architecture (that versed well over the Greek orders ... going into details of the ancient Greek city). Next I read the Iliad and the Odissey in detail (having a Mythology dictionary on hand), a bunch of Greek short plays and an interesting book that portrayed what "normal life" should have been in the Olympus. Finally, a bunch of guides ... of which the Blue Guide Athens and Environs and the Blue Guide Greece are by far the best (because they're very strong on history and site descriptions and their weekness on hotels, restaurants and the like didn't matter much because this was available in the net). <BR> <BR>Regarding driving distances between sites, if you have a little patience you may use the cwlease site. The problem is that you have to feed the names as they sound in Greek (Athina, Nafplio, Sparti, etc.) and these are not thet readily available on maps (spelling may not match). In my experience, driving times as given by cwlease are considerably overestimated if one's driving normally to get from one point to the other. In other words, the times are ok if one considers driving very slowly at times, stopping shortly to take a picture or to admire the view, etc. <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR>

Anna

I am interested in classical and archaic Greece, that is why my itenary missing medieval and bysantian sites. <BR>You can visit frankish castle near Olympia and Monemvassia/Mystras near Sparta. I agree that Nestor Palace, temple in Bassae is a stretch and then to Nauplion is a stretch. You probably can try to split it in 2 days in Olympia. Bassae will be on the road from Olympia to Nauplion and it is not a road you want to make twice. We took mountain route through Vassilaki, and I was so worried that couldn't even enjoy scenary. All things consider, Nauplion best place to explore east part of Peloponess. But roads connecting south and north are much easier than mountain passes from east to west. So may be the best plan is 2 days in Olympia and 3/4 in Nauplion. <BR>I wasted way to much time of my life on Greek history and literature, so I didn't feel like I should do any other research than routes and hotels. On site you can buy guide book with illustrations, short history and descriptions of the site/sites. I bought them in Knossos and Faestos, wish that I did this in other sites too. They gave you detailed plan and location of each building. I felt that this is all I need. (I really bad with orientations and directions).They cost around $15, but I collect books on greek history and art anyway. <BR>I stayed on Blue Sky hotel in Santorini. I cannot really recommend it. It is acceptable if you stay for a night and don't care much for comfortable bed. It's family operated hotel, and owner is very nice and friendly. <BR>In Heraklion, Crete we stayed at El Greco hotel and it was absolutely the worst hotel experience in my life. It started with extra fee for air-coditioning(how I was to know that you supposed to ask if air conditioning included?) and ended when I returned after the trip to pack and take a shower and found my family sitting with suitcases in the lobby. We agreed that for 1/2 of day rent we can stay until 8 pm, but they called and asked if we are going to pay for full day at 6:05 and caught us completely unprepared. To make things worse receptionist was extremly rude, she seems to be bent to make life difficult for every guest in hotel. I thought that maybe she disliked us personally, but then watched her to behave in the same manner with other guests. <BR>Any way I donot advise to stay in Heraklion. Sea resort near Heraklion would be better choice: try Aiya Pelagia or Charissia(?), you may want to rent a car, especially if you plan to stay for more than 2 days. I had more time there, I think to explore Crete you need at least 4 days. In contrary 2 days were to much for Santorini. Take a trip to Akrothiri in the morning, trip to volcano island in the afternoon, watch a sunset and get out of there. (Supposedly they have a great night club scene, if you into that - I am not so and I live in NY, I dont have to go to Greece for club hopping) <BR>We took plane from Athens to Santorini then Santorini to Heraklion, then back to Athens. They cost $40-60 dollars each. Be careful your baggage often comes with next flight. I opted for plane partly because didn't want to spend ours on ferry, partly because it is easier to to buy tickets in advance for plane. I couldn't find information on tickets fron Nauplion to Santorini on Internet(try www.ferries.gr) but when we got to Nauplin traver agencies advertised tickets for boats and ferries everywhere, so maybe I should have risked and try to find something to fit in my schedule. Definitely you should try to take ferry or boat between Crete and Santorini. <BR>We found our way out of Athens surprisingly easy, on our way back we had no idea where are we and how to get to the airport, by pure luck took a turn to Vouligameni and suddenly we were right there. <BR>No use to ask locals about directions, not even because of language barrier, but it seems that locals often do not know names of the streets and tend to give direction as third left turn after second tree. I am not sure if common traffic law apply to Greece, nobody follow them anyway. This can be fun though. <BR>

oscar

Anna, Paulo; <BR>Thanks a lot, great information. We are a family of 5 (children 25, 21, 14) but I am the only one who really loves history and they have agreed to join me in Greece for 4 days, therefore I will have to miss most of it but would like to see the island and Athens at least. What would be your suggestions? Thanks

Paulo

If all you've got there are 4 days, I don't think you should consider an island that's too far away from Athens. You may spend all night in Athens and make a day cruise to the islands in the Saronic Gulf (Aegina, Poros, Hydra, etc). Eventually, you may divide your nights between Athens and one island but you'd have to fly back and forth to save time. If what you're looking for are beaches, you could try either Mykonos or Naxos (haven't been to either). If you're looking for landscape you may opt for Santorini. <BR> <BR>In Athens, Plaka is for all ages ... I guess the same would apply to the Acropolis. I stroll through Anafiotika may be interesting and you may visit a couple of churches (Little Mitropolis's specially nice). You'd have to negotiate with them an eventual visit to the Ancient Agora and the Archaeological Museum (maybe they won't complain much if you limit the visits to 1 1/2 hour each). <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR>

tom

<BR>Anna & Paulo, fabulous information! <BR> <BR>What is Langhadia? (in Peloponessus). My Michelin map shows it as a town east of Olympia, but there in no mention of it in Fodors or Frommers. <BR> <BR>is Monemvassia worth a detour? overnite or daytrip (& if so, from Where exactly ?!) <BR> <BR>I'm planning roughly a counter clockwise drive thru Peloponessus, about 6-8 days total (rental car), but Monevassia seems remote & far away in the south-east corner of Peloponessus. From the Michelin map, the road doesn't seem so good...a long 2 lane road. <BR> <BR>Once one gets to Monevassia, what are the logistics?...does one park the car on mainland (somewhere?) & walk over to the island for a hotel? <BR> <BR>Including Monemvassia in a trip seems difficult...is it worth it for the setting/landscape, or for the Byzantine environment? <BR> <BR>Thx for any info.

alexis

I just returned after 23 days in Greece.(Athens, took a one day cruise and a week cruise to Santorini, Myknonos, Crete, Rhodes, etc. I will be glad to answer questions. <BR>

Maira

I have done most of the planing for the times my husband and I have been to Europe. This time I am just overwhelmed by Greece. What is new from the last time we went to Europe (1999) is that my husband has developed a condition that makes handling of steep hills and stairs quite difficult (not imposible). He still wants to do good to his word and insist on going ahead with the plans. <BR> <BR>Paulo, thanks for your advise. You have made an excellent point for the independent tour option. Now that you know about my husband's condition, I wonder if you have any advise as far as "preparing" for it.

Pamela

alexis- 4 girlfriends are planning our annual trip this year to greece. we are all debating where to go, how to get there. do you recommend going through a tour company, or plan on our own. we would like to go to athens,mykonos,santorini,crete or rhodes <BR>we have 10 days. give me some advice on how to plan. we want to leave sept 15th, 2000.

Paulo

Tom, I've got an old Shell map book. This map has a star system for indicating interesting sites (1 and 2 star, in blue for landscape and in red for history & art). Once we were planning to tour the Peloponnese, I checked to see what was on or near our itinerary options. Because of time restrictions, we had already axed Meteora, Ioanina, etc, and had decided to visit Osios Loukas and Delphi, as well as Olympia and using Nafplio as a base to explore the eastern part (Argos, Epidavros, Mycenae, etc). If we were touring clockwise or counter clockwise was still open (we ended up having to do it counter clockwise because in summer Nafplio is filled with Greek tourists during weekends and rooms may be hard to find; and we started on a weekend). Looking at my map both Karitaina and Langhadia were marked with a blue star. Later on, I got a Blue Guide Greece (which is laid out in driving itineraries, has lots of historical background and site descriptions) and I learned that both are picturesque villages respectively on a hill and rock, with beautiful views. We just decided to check'em out <BR> <BR>From Olympia, we drove to Bassae. Then back to Andritsaina (also very attractive) and Karitaina. Then on north to the Olympia-Tripolis main road. There we drove in the direction to Olympia a few miles to hit Langhadia. As a bonus, driving north from Karitaina, we got to see Stemnitsa and Dhimitsana, both also very beautiful and magnificently situated in the mountains. <BR> <BR>At first, we had thought of visiting Monemvasia and spending a night there. But someone in another forum told us that though very interesting as a sight during the day, there was just about nothing to do there at night (he classified it as dull ...). We decided to extend our stay in Nafplio instead and eventually visit it on our planned day trip to Mistras. The problem is that Monemvasia is about 1:30 hours from Sparta. We had finished having lunch around 1:30pm in Sparta and ... decided to axe it because we were already tired and wanted to go back (upon returning to Nafplio we had plenty of time to visit Tiryns and to relax in the hotel pool before going out for dinner. <BR> <BR>In Monemvasia I would guess that there is a parking lot on the mainland and some kind of transportation to the Old town (I understand that on foot it takes 20 minutes to cross the approach; if one had to carry one's luggage that far hotels in the old town would go out of business <BR> <BR>My estimate of the nonstop travelling time from Monemvasia to Nafplio is something under or around 3 1/2 hours (both inland or along the coast). Very much doable if one spends a night there. From Pilos (Nestor's Palace) to Monemvasia it should be under or around 4 hours. Also very much doable if one spends a night there. With the time you've got, you may consider staying a night each at Olympia, Pilos and Monemvasia, and 3-4 nights in Nafplio. Mistras could be visited either when driving from Pilos to Monemvasia or from there to Nafplio (innland road). <BR> <BR>Maira, I truely think that at times an impaired condition may force one to go about it how one should in the first place ... when one's intirely fit, one has (at least I do) a tendency to rush things. When going up a hill, why not stop under a shade, admire the view, sip some wine ... (a canteen for water is a must ... if you've two of them you may use one for wine <BR> <BR>Anyway, our Greek experience was very limited. In Athens, I can't see any difficulties. Even the Acropolis shouldn't represent a problem. The approach up the hill is not that steep and and filled with olive trees. Arachova is a nice village on the slope of a hill ... kind of steep. One doesn't have to go up. It's a bit tricky (finding a convenient itinerary) but a car may go up half the distance. Delphi is no swet. Though the Sacred Way goes up to the Temple of Apolo one is there to see things and the pace should be slow anyways. One doesn't have to climb the cavea steps of the theatre. Osios Loukas is a must ... a piece of cake. Olympia is flat. Mycenae (some goodies quite appart from each other, one hardly has the stamina to see it all), Argos and Tiryns (very small) are also a piece of cake. To climb the Palamidi fortress in Nafplio one may use the cable car. Epidaurus is flat but for the theatre. Mistras is tough ... very steep. But one may leave the car in the upper parking lot, stroll down the site and take a taxi/bus to pick the car. The Kastro is uphill from the parking lot. One may either axe it or climb slowly. <BR> <BR>In Santorini, going up the crater of Nea Kameni is a no no (it's long, quite steep, all pebbles ...impossible to have a firm footing ... two steps forward and one step slipping back), specially like we did it in the heat of July. We would never return. No problems with the rest of the island (Thira, Oia, Akrotiri, Kamari beach, etc). <BR> <BR>In Rhodes the old city is flat. Lindos is quite steep and the ascent is long ... but there are shaded areas on the way and one may go up slowly. <BR> <BR>If you were going on a cruise, chances are that it would be docking in Mykonos, Santorini, Heraklion, Rhodes and Kusadasi and ...where else Alexis? Don't know about Mykonos and Heraklion (Knossos). In Santorini and Rhodes you'd have to make your choices anyway. Ephesus wouldn't be a problem because the tour bus leave people at the top and one walks down. <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR>