kybourbon

>>>I have a list of towns where they are in effect, and (hopefully) good suggestions for parking options in those towns.<<<

That would be a very long list as most of the towns/cities you've listed have ZTL including small towns such as Pienza and San G.

I still think it's best to put Rome at the end, if only for car purposes. To group your train travel with places a car is the biggest hindrance, I would train to Florence upon arrival (Florence is notorious for ZTL tickets so you really don't want a car there). Spend 3-4 days in Florence with day trips by train to Pisa/Lucca. From Florence, train to Venice for 2-3 nights. Pick up the car as you are leaving Venice, visit lakes area, then Bologna area, next CT and on to Tuscany. After Tuscany, drive to Pompeii (I would drop CT and add that time to the Amalfi coast since Pompeii is a must). Either drop your car in Sorrento or drive to Rome and drop it to end your trip with the last week in Rome.

>>>I'm finding it slightly amusing that work-outages and strikes are planned out enough in advance to have a schedule.<<<

You can book strike proof trains. They are usually the ones during rush hour. They are listed on Trenitalia's website.

Phouka

It is, indeed, a long list. While I'm glad of it -- no cars/few cars in narrow town streets -- it does cause headaches for travelers.

Discussing with DH, we've dropped Cinque Terre from the list on this trip. A day won't do it justice, and neither one of us has it on the "must see" list for now. We'd rather be able to spend more time, so we'll include it in a trip to N. Italy later. Also trying to go to Florence/Venice in one swoop.

I'm curious why the common thread to "do Rome at the end". I'm not sure I understand why. We would either pick up the car upon leaving on day 8 (and now, try to leave it before florence) or drop it off in Rome on day 24-ish -- is the issue simply the ease/difficulty of getting the car in Rome on the way out, or reluctance to break up train trips with car rental in the middle? kybourbon noted "To group your train travel with places a car is the biggest hindrance" -- by this I assume you meant the hassle of picking up and dropping off a car more than once? Otherwise, we have rome - pick up car - drive in tuscany, veneto, etc, - drop off car - florence - venice. Is there some reason I'm not understanding to go to Florence and Venice first and end up in Rome? With our current rough plan, we would have an additional night near the airport in Rome before leaving on the 6th, but we've often done that (relocate to be near the airport) for very early morning flights. Odd?

Phouka

[hm. can't edit posts - ETA:]

Has any one stayed in Civita di Bagnoregio? I must admit I'm charmed by the pictures I've seen. Out of the way, what with the walkway, but it might be relaxing. Is it worth the effort?

jamikins

I think a lot of people recommend Rome at the end because it eliminates the one night stay the night before your flight. We always try to organise our trips the way.

annhig

jamikins has given the main reason, but IMO with Rome there is another just as important - your experience in the rest of Italy should help to prepare you for the glorious chaos which is Rome. Bigger, noisier, faster - I'd been to Italy at least half a dozen times before I got to Rome and it still blew me away.

but it does make practical sense to put it at the end - especially with strikes, traffic hold ups, etc, etc, - if you are already there, you don't have to worry about whether you will make your flight, and you don't lose a night at the airport. [though you might still choose to do that, i suppose, depending on how early your flight is].

I like KY's itinerary. it also puts Sorrento towards the end of your trip when the weather may have warmed up sufficiently for swimming.

isabel

Since you have eight days allocated for Rome why not break it up and do some at the beginning and some at the end. It would not mean any extra hotel stops since you were planning one for the last night anyway. That last night in Italy can be so wonderful, but not if you're in an airport hotel, which most people look at as a wasted night. Also you mentioned something about lack of energy for large cities, breaking it into two means you are less likely to get tired of it than one long eight day stay. During the rest of the trip you may find yourself saying 'we should have done ____" and this way you'll have the opportunity when you go back.

Since you are dropping the CT, and since you still want to do Pompeii, I really think basing in Sorrento and adding just a couple of days for a 'taste' of the Amalfi Coast is a good idea. You say you are planning that for a future trip, believe me, that won't change just cause you got a couple days on this trip, and it will make the Pompeii portion more enjoyable.

kybourbon

>>>kybourbon noted "To group your train travel with places a car is the biggest hindrance" -- by this I assume you meant the hassle of picking up and dropping off a car more than once?<<<

It's not simply the hassle of picking up a car. Many of these cities you are just not allowed to drive and they aren't easy to navigate around the ZTL if you do pick up a car. You aren't allowed to drive in the center of Rome (ZTL)so you would have to pick up somewhere outside the ZTL and Rome is difficult getting out of (many get turned around trying to drive out of Rome). You aren't allowed to drive in the center of Florence and parking in a garage will run about 35€ a day. You can't drive in Venice so parking charges again.

If you don't understand why having a car for these cities is a hindrance, you need to look at some ZTL maps. Here is the ZTL map for Florence. Click aree ZTL (to show the zone you can't enter) and click autovelox (to show the cameras that snap a pic of your license plate if you enter). Zoom in a bit.
http://news.comune.fi.it/muoversi/re...LITAETRASPORTI

ZTL map for Rome.

http://www.agenziamobilita.roma.it/en/ztl/ztl.html

There are similar ZTL maps for almost every city/town you've mentioned.

>>>Is there some reason I'm not understanding to go to Florence and Venice first and end up in Rome?<<<

Yes. It eliminates multiple car rentals. Florence is easy to reach upon arrival by train (90 minutes from Rome) so it's not a lot of travel on arrival day. Venice is easily reached by train from Florence (2 hours). This itinerary positions the two main cities where you absolutely don't need/want a car together. It eliminates a week of rental ($$$) and a week of parking at 30-35€ per day. It then groups your travel where you do want a car together. Rome at the end eliminates another week of car rental ($$$) and avoids going to Rome twice. This itinerary involves one rental. Picking up and returning cars multiple times is a hassle especially when it involves negotiating around ZTL's.

>>>Has any one stayed in Civita di Bagnoregio? I must admit I'm charmed by the pictures I've seen. Out of the way, what with the walkway, but it might be relaxing. Is it worth the effort?<<<

I wouldn't stay there. Much too small, hassle to transport luggage in to Civita for an overnight (wouldn't leave luggage/packages overnight in the car as it will be a distance away in an area not secure). It's worth a stop for an hour or two.

>>>>With our current rough plan, we would have an additional night near the airport in Rome before leaving on the 6th,<<<

Most people don't do this for Rome as you can easily taxi (set fee in Rome to the airport) or arrange a limo transport (similar to taxi price) . Most here will suggest you spend the night in Rome and enjoy your last night instead of being stuck at the airport. I would consider it a waste of a night.

If you haven't already, I suggest you start learning some of the Italian road signs (especially ZTL, parking, camera warnings, etc.). An IDP is required to drive in Italy. Here's a few signs to get you started.

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/road_s..._signs_cr2.htm

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/road_s..._signs_cr3.htm

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/road_s..._signs_cr7.htm

>>>>I do know that a car is troublesome and unnecessary in the larger cities (and some smaller ones) -- but I'm losing the argument with DH about it. We have (in other countries) had a car across the whole trip and simply factored in parking costs in the larger cities as necessary<<<

Your husband is comparing Italy to other countries that don't have the restrictions in the cities/towns that Italy does. You need to let your husband read some of the dozens of threads on this website about people getting tickets in the mail as much as a year later from Italy(yes, Italy has a year to get it to you from the time they get the info from the rental agency).
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic...ions_italy.htm

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/drivin...s_speeding.htm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...m-florence.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-3-mos-ago.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...tic-hassle.cfm

Phouka

Thanks, all. I appreciate the clarification.

I do understand why a car is hindrance in many of the larger cities, and can be annoying in smaller ones. We may shift our plans to consolidate the larger cities more, but we have dealt with limited traffic areas in other cities in Europe. Perhaps not the level Italy has, but difficult nonetheless. He has been to Italy twice before, I have not, so he's getting more points in the argument than I am. But, we have plenty of time to hash things out. I will definitely point him to the threads here. I'm already a member at Slow travel, I've been following their conversations for a bit, as well regarding driving/parking.

I do speak and read some italian -- enough to get by, so I navigate and he drives. None of our plans involved dropping off and picking up a car twice, since we had initially just planned to ditch the car in a parking garage in Venice. We definitely avoid having to deal with rental car agencies more than once. But it did involve leaving the car in those cities upon arrival and paying the parking costs. Shifting around the order of things does make it easier and avoids those charges, so definitely I'll make those changes.

Hm. Ok, visit Civita di Bagnoregio, but don't bother to stay there. Makes sense. It just looks like such a charming place to relax. But not particularly convenient (as so many of those places are).

We have a flight out of Rome at (I think) 7am. Our last night anywhere after a month is often a bust, so we don't worry too much about being somewhere fabulous. I planned to have dinner somewhere outside of Rome and finish the drive in in the evening and stay near the airport just to allow us to be closer to make such an early flight. We know that works for us, and eliminates the stress of getting anywhere (heck, we've stayed IN the airport in Oslo and Stockholm and London after long trips). Perhaps not everyone's idea of a great "last night", but...anything that lessons the actual stress of plane travel helps.

You all have been an incredible help, thank you. I appreciate the benefit of everyone's experience in Italy --and hope, eventually, to be able to contribute.

annhig

Phouka - i'm sure we'll all enjoy reading your trip report.

have a great trip!

Phouka

I may implode, having to wait until May next year! Usually we don't do quite as much planning, and just sort of wing it. But with visiting bigger cities, I feel like I *should* have a reservation, at least there. We usually have a place to stay when we arrive, a place the last night, and just decide as we go. In may, this is probably possible outside of Rome, Florence, Venice, but (if it's like any other place) can be a crap shoot.

I'll do a flurry of checking on things now, nail down a general itinerary, and then try to relax and practice my italian. Or, (and equally possible), I'll drive DH crazy with constant updates and plans.

I'm sure I'll have tons more questions - I always do about a new destination! Lots to think about, with the suggestions above. Thanks!

annhig

phouka - as i said before, i think that you probably can wing the driving portion, so long as you want to stay in fairly small places. [a guide like the michelin one will give you hotel facilities and prices, if you can't get access to the internet on the hoof].

but Rome, Florence, and Venice will definitely require pre-booking.

my technique is to work out my dates, then book somewhere that we know we will like through booking.com, using their free cancellation option. That doesn't stop me looking, but at least i know that we've got somewhere in the bag if i don't find my "ideal" hotel.

JanieMac

I would try to include the Amalfi Coast near the begginning, perhaps Positano with a boat trip to Capri. Easy going and good place to get over your jet lag.

Cinque Terre is wonderful, but really needs more time. You cannot drive to the best villages and there are few places to stay (though if you want just a bedroom you can ask around in the villages, basic and shared bathroom). So try staying somewhere like Santa Margarita and take the (frequent) train east to the smaller water front villages, and try a boat journey for part of it too, the whole thing is best seen from the water - that is how it existed until relatively recently. There are also some great walking trails between villages and some brilliant restaurants.

Overall I would always suggest staying each place for at least 2 or three nights and travelling out from your hotel. It is easier on your system and you get a much better sense of the place you are visiting, the people and the pace of life.There is always the special things you find that weren't in the guide books.

About 35 years ago I spent a month travelling Italy by train. In recent years we tend to hit the cities and beauty spots, but I still remember the adventure of being virtually lost at times on my first trip and finding it the most revealing. Enjoy!

bardo1

I just wanted to concur with a few thoughts already given:

isabel's suggestion to split Rome into two 4 day stays is excellent. An additional plus (besides the one's she listed) is that you can stay in (and really get to know) two completely different Rome neighborhoods (which you absolutely SHOULD do if you split Rome).

annhig's advice to pre-book accommodations in Rome/Florence/Venice and wing the smaller towns and villages is also spot on.

Rostra

I just quickly scrolled thru the thread so if I missed any change in these plans, sorry.

"05/13: Pompeii and Herculaneum, Oplontis, sleep in Pompeii
05/14: Drive to Orvieto, (this is a long-ish drive, but we couldn't miss pompeii!), sleep in Orvieto"

If those sites were on my "couldn't miss" list (and they definitely would be) I would add another full day plus add the Naples Archaeological Museum even if I had to drop Herculaneum or Oplontis.

Although I believe the museum has later hours than the sites?
If so, in a long early start day you could cover Oplontis, Herculaneum and the museum or Pompeii and Oplontis or Herculaneum and museum.

Phouka

Thanks, Rostra -- I think we can get up early, head north, stop in Naples and spend a few hours in the museum (where, I understand, a huge portion of the really spectactular finds from Pompeii are displayed) and plan to arrive in Orvieto by dinner. We'll spend the following day in that area.

I'll check the timing and work that into the plan.

I'm trying to make sure that (for the most part) we stay 3 nights minimum in each place, more if we can. Usually, we're pretty nomadic, but there is simply too much to see and I'd rather not be sleeping someplace different every night on this trip, I think we'd just sail through places and not really 'see' them if we did that.

You would all laugh at the giant calendar on the wall with sticky notes all over it, as I try to move things around and figure out how to best do things!

kybourbon

>>>I think we can get up early, head north, stop in Naples and spend a few hours in the museum <<<

You don't want to drive in Naples.

tuscancastle

Hi Phouka,

You will probably scream, but I didn't think your original itinerary needed much revision. I especially think somewhere in the hills around Asciano is a lovely place to be. Sorry to come into this thread so late. I can't follow all the back and forth, so I don't know exactly what your itinerary is anymore, but I wanted to add this article about Vicenza in case you didn't see it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/201...hitecture-food

There is a Michelin restaurant in Fiumicino if that appeals to you for your last night.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...ome_Lazio.html

The Archeological Museum in Naples is very worthwhile, but you don't want to drive there. It's only 30 minutes by train from Pompei to Naples. Leave your luggage at your Pompei hotel while you go to Naples. You don't want to leave it in a parked car in Naples. That sounds like "backtracking", but driving into Naples at rush hour and finding parking will take you more than 30 minutes anyway. As long as you leave Pompei by 3pm -- which will be quite easy, because the museum does not take forever -- you will be in Orvieto before sunset.

There is too much anxiety in this thread, especially the "what if there's a traffic jam?" "what if there's a strike?" "what if it rains? what if what if". Basically, all a lot of people have told you is that they'd prefer a different itinerary that includes this or excludes that or they prefer to travel in some other style. You and your husband seem to know from experience what style works for you, and he's been to Italy before.

hanabilly

I agree - do what works for you. All you can do is take the advice into consideration, and then do what seems to best suit your style. If you find that perhaps you were wrong, then you'll do it differently next time, but it's not like a glitch will be the end of the world, or even the end of a nice vacation.

DH and I are of the school that likes to stay near (or right at) the airport the last night. This works for us, as it makes that departure day that much smoother and stress free. Since we live on the west coast, and our home town is another awkward connection from LA, that return day can be very long.

I question whether it makes sense to leave the car in a garage while in Venice, but that's your call. If hub wants to drive let him drive - let's face it, everything will go better if both halves of the couple are happy ;

If it were me (I wish) I would drop the car upon arriving in Venice and train back to Rome.

Enjoy!

HappyTrvlr

Try to stay IN Bologna!