Taking account of all of your comments, we are thinking of saving the Picos de Europa for another trip and adopting the following revised itinerary. What do you think? Any recommendations for changes, hotels, restaurants, etc.?

Especially in Bilbao and San Sebastian, we will need 3 rooms because of 20-something kids/boyfriend—any ideas for apartments or other relatively affordable accommodations? We are hoping to spend maybe 60-100 euros per room per night most nights—less would be great, more would be possible (and more acceptable when we need 2 rooms rather than 3).

Wed. 9/2: Arrive in Bilbao early in the morning, spend the day in the city--Guggenheim, Museo de Bellas Artes (brief visits to both museums), Old Quarter. Stay in Bilbao.

Thurs 9/3: Rent a car and take a day trip from Bilbao. Could go to a cave (Altamira, El Castillo, or Cavalanas—which would you recommend?), OR just take one of the drives Maribel recommends—“Swiss Alps” from Amurrio to Balmaseda, OR Duranguesado Valley—which would you recommend? Re cave, we have not been to Lascaux II, but hope to someday. Daughter and boyfriend arrive late at night at Bilbao airport. Stay in Bilbao.

Fri 9/4: Drive to San Sebastian, with detour to the coast road from Zumaia to Getaria, and perhaps over to Hondarribia. Walk around and stay in San Sebastian.

Sat 9/5: Visit some part of French Basque country based on Maribel’s suggestions. How much makes sense to do in one day? Stay in San Sebastian.

Sun 9/6: Drive to Bilbao via coastal villages (e.g., Lekeitio, Laida, Gernika, Mundaka, Cabo Machiachaco, Gaztelugatxe). Stay in Bilbao.

Mon. 9/7: Take daughter and boyfriend to airport for 630 AM flight. Fly to Barcelona with our son on 7 AM flight. Upon arriving at Barcelona airport at 805 AM, drive into Catalan Pyrenees, perhaps via Santa Fe del Montseny, Ripoll, Sant Joan de les Abadesses, Coll de Coubet, and perhaps stay in Olot (Mas les Comellas?).

Tu 9/8: Drive to Besalu, Girona (walk around there), and then drive to Figueres (Teatre Museu Dali). Eat dinner and stay in Figueres? Or drive to and stay in Cadaques?

We 9/9: Go to Cadaques if did not the day before, and then drive to Castell de Pubol, and back to Barcelona, if time via Sant Feliu/Tossa/Lloret, drop off car in Barcelona. Stay in Barcelona.

Th 9/10: Barcelona

Fr 9/11: Barcelona

Sa 9/12: Barcelona

Su 9/13: Fly home 11 AM

Thanks again for all your help,

Len

9/2, 9/3 Wed.-Thurs.

Bilbao hotel:
The Abba Parque (where I sometimes stay) has rooms for 61 and 71
www.abbaparquehotel.com
The Petit Palace Arana in the Casco Viejo (Old Quarter) has rates of 70 or 86 with breakfast.
www.hthoteles.com

9/3 Thurs. day trip:
If you have your heart set caves, I would see the real pre-historic cave paintings at El Castillo/La Moneda outside of Puente Viesgo rather than the neo-cave replica of Altamira in Santillana.
The El Castillo complex is well done. Afterwards you could even walk a bit of the Via Verde (walking path made from old railroad bed) which starts down next to the Balneario (spa) intown.
The Covalanas caves are closer to Bilbao but only allow 6 or so visitors in at each visit.
You absolutely must have prior reservations. Either call, email or book online.

http://cuevas.culturadecantabria.com/covalanas.asp

I've been to the major caves of Asturias/Cantabria/Basque Country and the Dordogne, and the Altamira replica just doesn't seem very authentic to me.
But for either, you WILL need reservations. Don't forget! You can book online for Altamira as well and by pass the lines at the outside ticket booth, going directly to the info desk inside for your appointment to the neo-caves, then visit the rest of the museum.

If you can forgo the caves and add to your next trip to Cantabrian Picos, you could take the pretty drive to Balmaseda. Or spend the day in the Urdaibai Biosphere.

(The Durangesado, I mention in the file, because I like to stay in Axpe at the Medi Goikoa and dine at the amazing Etxebarri, but that requires an overnight for this visit to really be fantastic for me).

9/4, Fri.
Drive to San Sebastián taking detour from Zumaia to Getaria or on to Zarauz.
Stop for a drink or lunch in Getaria at the Mayflower (grilled sardines) at the pier, have some txakolí (Basque white wine from this D.O.).
But visit Hondarribia on your way to the French Basque Country, AFTER San Sebastián.

9/5, Sat.
Drive from San Sebastián to Hondarribia then up the autoroute to EITHER St.-Jean-de-Luz or Biarritz, one of the two for a look at a sophisticated French Basque beach resort.
Or Hondarribia then Bayonne
for a visit to a genuine Basque city totally without pretense and a fantastic Basque Ethnographic Museum-but allow 2 hrs. at least for this museum, as it's just terrific!
But the Basque Museum in Bilbao (FREE on Thurs.) is no slouch either, so you could visit one or even both.
If you want to learn more about Basque history, culture, way of life one of these fine museums is truly a must.

www.musee-basque.com
www.euskal-museoa.org/

9/6, Sun.
Back to Bilbao, getting off the autoroute to drive inland and up to Lekeitio, then down to Gernika, then up the estuary to Bermeo and on to San Juan de Gaztelugatxe. This drive could take all day, since there are lots of stops for photo ops. And I honestly wouldn't miss a walk down into the painted forest of Oma (drive the car up the 2 km. hill to the entrance, then walk down).

9/7, Mon.
Fly from Bilbao to Barcelona, pick up rental car at airport, drive to Ripoll
(too bad the Episcoapl Museum in Vic is closed Mon.)
for Monestir de Santa María/ Sant Joan de les Abadesses (both open Mon.)
Stay somewhere around Olot.

If you want to skip the monasteries, saving for Tues., go up to Ribes de Freser and take the fabulous train ride up to the Val de Nuria, then back down.
But... check train schedule carefully to make sure it will work at
www.valldenuria.com

9/8, Tues.
Drive to Besalú, see a bit of the Garrotxa volcanic area around Santa Pau, then on to Figueres for Teatre Museu Dalí. Stay in or around Figueres.

9/9, Wed.
Drive to Cadaqués, then to Púbol to finish off Dalí triangle , then back to Barcelona. Certainly skip Lloret completely!!
If you had time for anything else, I would include the superb Greco-Roman ruins of Empúries at L'Escala, then take the C 31 down to Púbol.

9/10, 9/11, 9/12-Barcelona

Hope this helps.

RESPONSE WITH FOLLOW UPS
Thank you so much, Maribel. Your suggestions are extremely helpful as always.

A few follow-up questions if you don’t mind:
I think we’ll save our cave expedition for a hoped-for trip to Dordogne some other time.
Given that we plan to be in the Urdaibai Biosphere area on Saturday 9/6, would you use Thursday 9/3 to go to another part of that area (giving us time for the walk to Oma on Saturday, which I'm sure my daughter would love), or would you take the drive to Balmaseda?

I have not gone through all the recommendations in your guide yet, but any suggestions on a hotel in San Sebastian that you think would make most sense for 3 rooms and a reasonable price, good location, and not crazy with a car? You aren’t aware of any in-town multi-room apartments, are you?

I gather you are not suggesting we drive into the inland areas of the Pays Basque. Is that because you don’t think we’ll have time? My wife had been interested in the train to La Rhune. Would that make any sense to do?

Nuria sounds great. Would you take the cable car also, or just the train?

You didn’t mention Girona. Would you try to fit that in, or skip it?

By skipping Lloret, you mean to skip Tossa and Sant Feliu as well? Empuries does seem to make a lot of sense.

I have not reviewed your guide to Barcelona yet, but any particular recommendations re hotel or 2-bedroom apartment given our price range?

Thanks again!
Len

Regarding 9/3
If you plan to cover the entire Urdaibai Biosphere are on 9/6 (painted forest of Oma, "virtual tour" of caves of Santimamiñe, Peace Museum in Gernika, drive up the estuary to whaling town of Bermeo, on to San Juan de Gaztelugatxe even as far as Bakio), then yes, I think you can explore the area from Amurrio to Balmaseda, but I would make sure to cover the Urdaibai well.

Hotel in San Sebastían
For your budget of 60-100 euros per room per night, I would look at the Hostal Alemana or the Pension Bellas Artes

www.pension-bellasartes.com
www.hostalalemana.com

Or check the listing of www.friendlyrentals.com for a 2 bedroom apartment. I haven't checked their rates for Sept. lately.

For Nuria, just the train, that will take you to the sanctuary. You could also take the cable car, but the train will take you to the basin where you can take some spectacular walks.

Re inland Pays Basque,
I love taking the train to La Rhune, but I don't see where you have allocated the time. My husband and I do this from our base in Hondarribia, and it requires an early morning departure, since the lines to take the train can often be quite long, but we go during high season. When do you plan to fit this in to your schedule?

I see your day trip exploration in the Pays Basque either to a French Basque coastal resort (St.-Jean-de-Luz/Biarritz), or to the spiritual capital of the Pays Basque-Bayonne, or a train trip to La Rhune in the am and visit to either of the first two (resort town or Bayonne) in the afternoon, from San Sebastian. (You really must do La Rhune as early as possible in the morning).

Empuries not only makes sense, it's one of Catalunya's most important sites, archaeologically speaking. I'm not all that well-versed in Greco-Roman ruins, but I found it fascinating.

I love exploring the ancient Jewish quarter of Girona, the Call, and visiting the cathedral, but again, I don't know when you'll have time to fit it in, unless you skip something on your list.

The drive from Sant Feliu to Tossa is spectacular, but Lloret is not.

This is a matter of making priorities, so what is most important to you, scenic drives or historical sites?

For Barcelona,
there are amazing bargains to be had from the Derby group this year. I have just switched my own reservations for June to one of the Derby properties because of their unbeatable online rates at their 3 and 4 star hotels in the Eixample. For low rates look at the 3 star Astoria or Balmes. And on the booking feature, be sure to click on "more rates" to see the "hidden" 15% discounts. Unbeatable for a full service hotel in a very safe location.
See your options at www.derbyhotels.com

I would second the Ordesa National Park as a great place to visit. The hiking is not difficult (you wouldn't really need hiking boots) and the scenery is spectacular. Have a look at some photos http://www.jeremytaylor.eu/ordesa.htm

Maribel:
Thanks again! It does sound like there’s a lot to do in the Urdaibai Biosphere, and we love areas that are close to the sea, so I am inclined to go there both Thursday 9/3 (perhaps with a visit to the Bilbao Basque Museum first) and with my daughter and boyfriend on Sunday 9/6, and save Balmaseda for another trip.

We had thought of going to La Rhume on Saturday 9/5, but sounds like that is too much (and we will be on a train a couple days later). As we will have my daughter and her boyfriend (allergic to touristy places) with us that day, do you think they will like St. Jean-de-Luz? Perhaps they would prefer Bayonne? If we wanted to do a day with Hondarribia, Bayonne (maybe without the museum if we have gone to the museum in Bilbao?), and someplace inland in Pays Basque, what would you recommend? Or is that clearly too much for one day?

Girona did sound interesting. We were thinking of an early departure from Olot on 9/8 Tuesday, to Besalu, Girona, and Figueres. If we did not have time for Dali Museum that day, we could perhaps visit it first thing on 9/9, go to Cadaques, perhaps skip Pubol, try to have time for Empuries, and try to include the drive from Sant Feliu to Tossa. But perhaps that’s crazy. We are mostly interested in the Dali museums as buildings, so would not expect to stay all that long looking at paintings.

Unfortunately, we like scenic drives and walks, historic sites, fascinating towns and cities, delicious food, interesting cultures, etc. Obviously what we really need is more vacation time....

Len

I've been following this thread without saying anything because people so frequently have posted that you are going to end up seeing everything through your windshield -- at best.

I think you are underestimating some of the drive times and parking requirements and it is hard to see the point of toe-touching one basque town after another without relaxing in any of them.

Much of the french basque seacoast is pretty, but it is not so much prettier than the Spanish Basque coast to make it worth to haul all the way to touristy St Jean de Luz or beyond.

Likewise, the loop-de-loops through all sorts of Catalonian destinations to glimpse a Jewish bath or Dali church --

I'm a huge critic of "slow travel" or any other kind of formulaic travel, and when I drove through the Basque country, the Pyrenees and Catalonia I was a demon behind the wheel. I had more time that you do explore and revisit and adjust. It wasn't a forced march.

I only sometimes agree with Maribel's advice, but her question about what you want to be doing -- absorbing Catalonian and Basque culture or driving (only some of it will be scenic) is a good one. But you need to get out of the car more often.

Our posts crossed, If somebody is allergic to touristy places in your group, they will have a sneezing fit plus hives in St Jean de Luz.

And while Besalu is a rarity for Catalonia -- many of its towns of that sort have been lost, I would not consider it essential. Girona has many more atmospheric areas of interest beyond the touristy core of the cathedral -- and if I were going somewhere simply to be amazed by a town, I'd pick Vic hands down over Besalu, even if the museum is closed. It's ten times more interesting than Besalu.

Len,
Some find the coastal town of St-Jean-de-Luz/Donibane very "touristy", some do not.
Some feel that very same way about Cadaqués.
I don't have a sneezing fit or hives in either outside of high season.
Both will be far less crowded in September than in July-August.

I'm somewhat allergic to very touristy places, that's why I'm not as fond anymore of Santillana del Mar and all its T-shirt shops, open in winter and summer, (I'm not crazy about Carcassonne either), but I do still enjoy St.-Jean-de-Luz. Most of the visitors in Sept. will be French nationals.

I really don't have any way of knowing how your daughter and boyfriend will feel about St.-Jean-de-Luz or the city of Biarritz.

I took American friends both to Bayonne, St.-Jean-de-Luz and for a weekend stay in Biarritz. They are foodies and adored the markets and loved the beachs at St.Jean and Biarritz. They delighted in it all except for the July crowds.
They did remark that Bayonne seemed especially charming/captivating to them because it was so authentically Basque and didn't feel the need to "pretty up" for tourists. Bayonne just doesn't attract many tourists compared to its more "picture postcard perfect" cousins, except for the pilgrims on the way from its cathedral to St-Jean-Pied-de-Port to do the Pilgrimage to St. James.

As I posted above, you will enjoy your day excursion into the Pays Basque from San Sebastián more if you pare down. My husband wasn't keen on taking the short train ride up to La Rhune until we actually did it with friends. It happened to be a beautiful rather than cloudy day so we reveled in the spectacular views of both Navarra and the Basque coast. But....
we took the entire day for our inland explorations, coupling this with other activities in the charmingly picturesque villages of Sara, Espelette, Ainhoa, etc.

I think you need to choose between a coastal drive or an inland one to visit the 3 flower villages in the bucolic French Basque countryside.

Hondarribia, St-Jean-de-Luz (or skip)-Bayonne, remembering that the Musée Basque in Bayonne is one of Europe's very finest ethnographic museums. I need to allow at least two hours to enjoy it thoroughly.

or
La Rhune plus Sara-Ainhoa-Espelette-La Bastide Clairence, which is a quartet of villages more off the beaten path.
But it is just that: a collection of highly picturesque villages with no "must see" monuments, museums.

I was under the impression that you wanted to complete the Dalí triangle, but if visiting those Dalí sites are not that important to you, I would certainly skip one or two of them to spend more time in the historic quarter of Girona.

And I certainly love Vic every bit as much as the next person, and yes, even on Mondays, although I prefer to visit when I can enjoy both the outdoor market on a Sat. or Tues. AND the Episcopal Museum. That makes more sense to me. And I've spent 3 days there lodged in the Parador at Vic-Sau, overlooking the lake.
And of course, there's more to see there than in Besalu because it is a vibrant town of 40,000 rather than a village of 2,000.

More info regarding Besalu:
http://tinyurl.com/oug7ah

More about Vic:
http://victurisme.ajvic.net/default.asp?id=3
www.victurisme.cat/english/ciutat_vic_cat.htm

Yes, Len what you need is more vacation time! You just need to decide what your priorities are, and try to absorb as much Basque and Catalonian history and culture in the time you have without exhausting yourself with driving.
I would simply follow mikelg's sound advice to pursue "a strategy of concentration rather than diversification".

Len, your itinerary on the Basque area sounds fine, as well as all of Maribel´s suggestions. In any case, I wouldn´t worry too much about where to go...as your likings are nice villages, good food, relaxing atmosphere and non touristic places, that´s what you´ll basically find over here. And don´t forget that you´re skipping La Rioja wine region, full of historical places and great wineyards (just 100 kms from Bilbao).

To make things easier, places you shouldn´t miss:

- Bilbao, and near Bilbao, the Hanging Bridge-Puente Colgante and Getxo (20´ride on the metro system), a unique experience. In Bilbao, the Old Town, Guggy, Bellas Artes Museum, funicular train to Artxanda for the very best views of the area. Opposite the Guggenheim.

- Lekeitio, Zarautz, Getaria, Zumaia...all on the same road to or from San Sebastian. Lekeitio is a real must.

- St Jean de Luz is a gem, but try to visit it on a weekday. Although touristy, still keeps its charm. Bayonne is just minutes away, two sides, one with the cathedral, more "tourist oriented", the other side of the river with the Old Bayonne, more local atmosphere. Biarritz must also be visited.

- San Sebastian, Igueldo mountain for spectacular views of the bay. Hondarribia is another must.

- Save a day for Laguardia in the Basque Rioja region, and Labastida. One day for both, if you can visit Vitoria and the restoration of the Old Cathedral, it´s a plus.

And, in any case, follow Maribel´s advice, and don´t worry too much about what you´ll be missing, but on what you´ll see. The Off The Beaten Track places will be for next visit, still untouched (we keep them for ourselves, Basques are kind of reserved people

BTW, did you know that the most spectacular collection of ALL models of authentic Rolls Royce cars is hidden in a castle in the Basque Country, and can be visited? Even women love it---the owner shows it himself, all cars run and there are 43 RR and 22 other classics...but this is a secret to everyone(www.torreloizaga.com)

Obviously there is plenty to see everywhere in the Basque country and Catalonia and optimal times to see them and not, but the main problem -- with all due respect to the people giving this advice -- is there is simply way too many urgings of "must-sees" for such a limited period of time.

Even if people just want to go from one charming place to the next, you're listing too many of them! Nobody can tour all those places in one day, day after day in a single rush.

It's nice to make people aware of what's on offer, but I hope they don't try to do all this! What I fear will happen is that they will just start bailing at a certain point out of sheer exhaustion and frustration at not really getting a chance to absorb anything.

Well, anyway.

I want to make one last comment about the Greek ruins in Catalonia.

I went to Catalonia almost by accident. It was last minute trip and I had no time to plan it. But I did have 3 weeks. Seeing the greek settlement that faces the sea is a real eye opener about what kind of a nation-culture Catalonia was. Why it remains such a cosmopolitian, outward looking place -- except in the strongholds of controversial Catalonian nationalism, like Vic, which to this day argues against the cosmopolitan outlook of multi-lingual Barcelona. Also, seeing how British expats have transformed the costa brava -- destroyed really, so much of it -- and who has roughshod over this marvelous and beleagured Catalonian culture that goes back to antiquity (Basque culture in primitive by comparison!) deserves to be appreciated. Just going to quaint and picturesque places shortchanges to me the value of being there and understanding contemporary Europe.

I live in one of Italy's most touristy towns and I live the life of a hedonist. I've got nothing against tourists (they pay the bills around here), the picturesque, or pleasure travel -- and if I didn't live here, I'd live in San Sebastian. So I've not got anything against purely enjoying these places for their touristic charm and novelty and looking for variety. But it's a lost opportunity if you race through Spain doing touristy things, because its the single most interesting contemporary cultural project in Europe.

Zeppole, I really think that my proposal (or Maribel´s) is too "urging". As I´ve pointed out, there´s plenty to see and do, so just take the road and try to stop in any of the places proposed. I think that if you´re having a good time in one place, you should stay and not go to next one just "because". Len will probably take these suggestions on consideration when thinking on what to do next day.

HI mikelg and Len,
Agreed. And I'm a great believer in "slow travel", allowing ample time to soak up and savor.

Any or all of the above are simply suggestions of what places of merit in the Basque Country (or Catalonia) that a traveler might want to see or experience within his or her time limitations.

Sorry, I meant to say that our proposal was NOT too "urging", the sense of the sentence changes completely.

great.

I just wanted to say one other thing about Vic.

Unlike most european plazas and piazzas that were designed by a single architect, one of the things that makes the Plaza Mayor in Vic stunning is that it is an accretion of buildings from a variety of centuries -- CENTURIES -- and it is beautiful. I've not been on market day but I would actually worry it would be harder to see the plaza on that day. And while the museum is stupendous, I can't see the point of making the best the enemy of the good. Why go to a less interesting town simply the museum in the more interesting town is closed?

My other concern is about a certain kind of template for tourism that I'm almost guessing originated with people traveling to Provence -- go from one charming preserved village to another, do a little market shopping and cafe sitting, go to the next. It's amusing, relaxing, pretty and a relief from big-ticket, art-heavy sightseeing. This same template has since been applied with great success to one corner of Tuscany, and now people are trying to "do" Piemonte that way. I guess Catalonia can be done that way too -- but why? It's Spain, not France.

Also, to me touristy doesn't mean "tacky tee shirts" etc. It just means a town where nothing else is going on other than tourism. St Jean de Luz has been in the tourist business for more than a century, so I'm not faulting it for being a holiday town. I've not been to Bayonne, so no comment. But if people want to come into contact with a foreign culture, they are wise to seek out places where tourists don't outnumber locals 5 to 1.

I have enjoyed reading, and rereading, this topic. We are planning a trip to Barcelona and the Basque region and have made adjustments to our itinerary based on the advice you all have given.

We are now planning on staying three nights in Barcelona, three nights in San Sebastian, and then returning to Barcelona for the last two nights.

July 14 – Barcelona (arrive in am after night flight)
July 15 – Barcelona - Girona /Figueres outing
July 16 - Barcelona
July 17 – San Sebastian (a few hours in either San Sebastian or Barcelona and travel to San Sebastian)
July 18 – San Sebastian - outing to Urdaibai Biosphere/Painted Forest/Gernika
July 19 – San Sebastian - outing to Pays Basque
July 20 – Barcelona – travel and a few hours in either San Sebastian or Barcelona
July 21 - Barcelona - Monserrat outing
July 22 – depart for home in am

We would like to minimize driving. I don’t drive a manual car so we have to rent an expensive automatic or my husband will have to do all the driving. We are planning to rent a car at least for the Girona/Figueres outing and the two outings from San Sebastian. We‘ll rent a car additional days if it makes sense to do so.

We are thinking of taking a train between Barcelona and Sebastian. We don’t like small prop plans and I understand, based on a call I made to Iberia Air, that this is the type of plane that flies this route. I assume this is true of the other airlines. If anyone has had any experience flying this route, please let us know. I know this decision will cost us a lot of time. It looks to us like the train takes six and a half hours, which isn’t much longer than if we drove and it will be less expensive. Is there a reason for us to drive either one way or both ways?

We would like to visit Pays Basque. Am I right that Maribel’s advice is that it would be too much to do St.-Jean-de-Luz, Biarritz, and Bayonne as a day trip, but that we could do two of the three? Could we also do the train to Le Rhune if we do this in the am?

I would appreciate any comments on the itinerary. Have we completely failed to heed mikelg’s advise of “a strategy of concentration rather than diversification”? We’ve cut out some of what we wanted to do (e.g. Bilbao, wine region) but should we cut out more of the outings? I could skip Figueres, although I’m not sure how much of a difference this would make. We know San Sebastian is a beach town, but we don’t plan to spend more than a few hours, at most, on the beach. We do want to be able to explore and enjoy the city.

Thank you all.

San Sebastian is not a beach town. It´s the loveliest town in Europe, with three beaches. But weather over here is not "mediterranean", it rains, it´s cold and humid and going to the beach is only possible in late spring and summer. So if you miss SS, you´ll miss a wonderful town, where food is like a religion for us.

The rest of the itinerary sounds fine to me, missing the Guggenheim museum, even from outside, is a real pity, though.

Regarding flights, well, Clickair links both cities at very cheap prices and in just one hour, in Airbus planes. BTW, small props are safer than big turbojets, but this is not the case, we are talking big planes on this route.