musicdiver

I'm heading to Europe in mid May. My good friend from university is spending 3 months in Munich with her husband this spring/summer, so I've built out a trip based on cheaper flights, with a plan to spend time with them for about 6 nights near the end. I've previously been to Venice, but wasn't there long enough to make any day trips and otherwise haven't been anywhere else in Italy (including its northern regions).

I'm an early 30's solo female traveller whose preferred pace is 'moderate' (it's all relative but for context: I've rarely found 1 night stops to be worthwhile unless the train journeys on either end are less than an 2 hours long (I don't know what I was thinking trekking all the way up to Mount Koya from Hiroshima for just one night's stay), and while I like to spend a good 5-8 nights in major cities with a day-trip or two, my 5 nights alone in the small town of Rovinj (beautiful though it is) were perhaps a couple nights too many!) I tend to prefer the bustle of cities to sleepier towns, though I've enjoyed the odd break in countryside locations. Cycling is also a big hobby of mine (and primary mode of transportation back home) so I'll be on the look out for chances to ride wherever I stay. I'm on a bit of a budget (leaning towards hostels), though the poor Canadian dollar makes anything Euro pricey right now!

So, I have 14 nights to play with before meeting up with my friend. My cheap-ish flight gets me into CDG Paris early in the morning so I'm planning to book a cheap-ish flight to Milan that evening so the first jet lagged night will be a bit of a late-arriving wash.
Thinking:
3 nights Milan (2 full days) (day-trip to Como or Bergamo?)
4 nights Bologna (3.5 days) (day-trip to Ravenna)
3 nights Mantua/Mantova (2.5 days) (day-trip to Cremona/Crema?)
- stop in Verona for the full day on the way to Lake Garda-
2 nights Lake Garda area (1 full day)
2 nights Innsbruck (1 full day)

(I'll then have 6 nights in Munich with my friend, and then a cheap flight to Amsterdam (where I've been before so I'll explore Den Hague this time) for 3 nights before returning to Canada.)

I appreciate any suggestions or feedback!
Apart from the chaining from Garda to Innsbruck, most of my train journeys should be fairly short so I'm hoping the 3 and 2 nights options won't feel too rushed. Day-trips are of course optional and if I'm in love with the place I'm in I'll just keep exploring there!

PalenQ

Short train trips in Italy can be done by regional trains where you buy the dirt-cheap tickets for those trains at the station day of travel. No seat reservations even possible. But when say going to Innsbruck from Italy booking way WAY in advance can save tons of money. For lots on that see www.seat61.com - the guru site for booking your own discounted tickets online; general train info also BETS-European Rail Experts and www.ricksteves.com.

I'd consider going to Florence at least as a day trip from Bologna - in May, Florence should be calm - anyway seems you are settling on smaller less touristed towns which is good but I'd still suggest a forway to Florence just to see the Duomo area and the lovely historic core. Florence also like many Italian cities now have bikes you can rent at various places and cycle around as zillions of Italians do in those fairly flat cities you are visiting.

kitbag

When you visit Den Haag, it can be a lot of fun make a stop in the Panorama Mesdag. If you run out of things to do in Den Haag, I just spent 2 nights in Utrecht, and was able to see everything I wanted to see in an afternoon. I don't know if the train connections make it easy to get back and forth between the two, but there are people who post on the Netherlands forum here who can tell you that if it interests you.

Your Italian itinerary looks very nice to me, with the possible exception of committing yourself to staying on Lago di Garda not knowing what the weather will be. I don't know what you want to see and do there, but unless you are thinking of taking a ferry to the more scenic northern end of the lake to sleep there or do some mountain biking, you might want to reconsider and stay the whole time in Verona, and just make a day trip to the lake on a day when you are sure the weather will be nice.

Staying in Bologna, you will be only 20 minutes by train from both Modena and Ferrara, two of the most bicycle-happy towns in Italy. If cycling is a big passion for you, maybe you would like to go there?

If you would like to see a beautiful small town very much like Crema, with very similar food, you can easily do it from Milan by going to historic Lodi. Many people bicycle there (some all the way from Milan) and you can probably rent a bike right in the town.

Although you might want to spend the full time in Mantova without day trips, because the sights are extensive and a bit spread out, an alternative to Crema or Cremona is lovely Renaissance Carpi, less than an hour's ttrain ride away from Mantova. Cycling is quite popular in Mantova, too.

neckervd

I don't see why you should waste your first day in Europe at CDG airport. There are flights from there to Milan MXP at 9.25, 10.50, 13.20, 13.40, 14.50, 15.25......
Cremona can easily be "done" in a day trip from Milan (1hr by train OW) or Brescia (1 hr too).
Mantova is about 3/4 hrs by train from Verona and 1 1/4 hrs by train from Modena.
Don't forget to visit Parma.

Most scenic itginerary from Lake Garda to Innsbruck:
Desenzano dp 9.15 resp Peschiera dp 9.25 - Lake Garda boat - Riva sul Garda ar 14.05, dp by bus 16.29 - Rovereto yr 17.12, dp by train 17.43 - Innsbruck ar 20.46.

PalenQ

And Rotterdam and Delft are just a short train ride from The Hague too - Rotterdam especially is a bastion of modern architecture - Delft then quintessential old canal-laced Dutch regional town. Lots in a compact area.

musicdiver

@PalenQ - Thanks for the suggestions! In looking at accommodation costs and availability, I may sacrifice the Tyrolean region (Innsbruck and Bolzano both seem rather booked up where affordable places near the train stations are concerned) and give those nights to Florence then instead. Regarding the Netherlands leg of things - the last time I was there was 2012. I spent about 11 nights there (4 in Amsterdam, 3 in Utrecht, 2 in Leiden, 1 in Rotterdam and 1 in Domburg in a castle hostel!) My time in Rotterdam was far too short though, so I never got to see Delft. I arrive late in the evening the first night and leave early the last morning so I'll have 2 days to cycle about the country side. I hope to ride from Den Hague to Delft and back and maybe make another detour to Rotterdam.

@kitbag - Thanks for the feedback! I really liked Utrecht last time I was there, and I hear it's just gotten better and better for cycling since my visit 6 years ago. This time though I might stay closer to the Delft and Rotterdam side of things. You make a good point about Garda. I suppose in late May the weather can still work against me. I can always look at Verona accommodations instead and perhaps do that as a day trip instead... I appreciate the other town suggestions as well. So much to see.

@neckervd - Fair point. I suppose early morning isn't the best description... mid morning? I want to make sure I have a few hours to make it over from wherever I get in on my trans Atlantic flight to EasyJet's area of the terminal. And then I'm looking at 5pm or 7pm departures (the 3pm ones were nearly twice the price). If I go with 7pm perhaps I'll eat into my cheap ticket savings and dart into Paris for a few pastry-consuming hours (haven't been since I spent a week there 6 years ago.) I'm still waffling on that though but I'll need to buy that ticket soon!

PalenQ

https://www.google.com/search?q=kind...ih=615&dpr=1.5

If going back to Rotterdam area be sure to see Kinderdijk, Holland's largest collection of behemoth wooden windmills set in a bucolic setting. Takes boats there from Rotterdam or rent a bike and cycle to a ferry taking you near it and cycle thru this awesome place.

whitehall

Last fall, we spent 8 days in northern cities and lakes, links to our two-part trip report are below.

Como and Bergamo are both great, and, if it’s a choice, you may want to watch the weather and spend a day on Como if it’s beautiful. We saw a lot on Como in two days but if it’s one day, that can work. Take rail to Varenna, walk around there. Take the short hop to Bellagio. We had a perfect day there mostly away from the crowds. Then ferry to Lenno and possibly Villa Balbianello. Ferry down the lake to Como and eventually return by rail to Milan.

We enjoyed two days on Lake Garda, but if you only have one, stay in Pescheira del Garda. Take ferry to Malcesine.

Trip Report: Part 1 Northern Italian Lakes & Cities (12 days October)

Trip Report: Part 2 of 2): Northern Italian Lakes & Cities (12 days October)

annhig

If you are planning to use places like Bologna as centres for day trips but train, I suggest staying not too far away from the station. My recent experience in Bologna was that considerable time was taken just getting to the station due to the vagaries of the buses. Mind you I was going in the afternoon [after a morning at language school] so I was anxious to make the most of the time I had available. With a whole day it may not be so crucial but it's very irritating to be stood at a bus stop for 30 mins waiting for a bus that's supposed to come every 5 minutes or so!

I would also suggest if you can expanding your time in Bologna. So much to see, so little time.

dreamon

You might find this site on cycling around Ferrara interesting: Cycle tourism ? Ferrara Terra e Acqua

I found it when planning for our own stay in Ferrara this coming May.

dreamon

Not sure why that didn't render correctly - ferraraterraeacqua.it/en/cycle-tourism

musicdiver

OK, between trains and accommodation availability and budget and so on, I've had to drop the Innsbruck portion and then rejigged things a bit:

3 nights Milan (Como daytrip. Possible bike ride out to Lodi - thanks @kitbag! Found this enticing pdf guide https://www.parcoaddasud.it/portale/...imiinglese.pdf ... so little time to see so much!)

3 nights Florence (ok ok, this wasn't on the menu originally, then it was a daytrip... then well. Here we are. No daytrips planned for this. Just the city itself.)

4 nights Bologna (possible Modena daytrip and/or Ravenna. Though Bologna itself looks rather enchanting so much of my time may be there instead.)

3 nights Mantova (just to ease up the pace and spend some time somewhere smaller. If it's not for me, there's always that Cremona or other daytrip)

1 night Verona (a tragically short time but it turns out a friend might know someone there who can put me up for the night, and it'll give me a local's insight without my overstaying my welcome. Train leaves from here to Munich so also sensible to rest my head there the night before.)

The only spontaneous switch would be if I were to steal a night from Mantova for another in Bologna. But if I leave Bologna late and Mantova early it'll give me just 2 days in Mantova, a bit more time in Bologna, and more than just the evening for Verona.

@whitehall - Thanks for the suggestions for Como! It's looking like I might have to miss out on Lake Garda this trip. As I've parsed out which days where, certain accommodations that were more in budget disappeared so I've moved things around a bit to make it all work. With my 3 nights in Milan, Lake Como is still a definite as a day trip.

@PalenQ - That's a good suggestion - I missed out on the Kinderdijk last time.

@Annhig - Good tip. I've just booked my Bologna accommodations and they're pretty near the train and the university. Though with just four nights it looks like I might be spending most of my time in Bologna itself (and the more I read, the more I just want to stay and stay. )

@dreamon - Thanks for the link. Looks promising!

kitbag

In Bologna right now there is an extremely lovely compact exhibit of Japanese art at the small Palazzo Albergati (on via Sargozza) which I think will still be open in May.

Both the residents of Ferrara and Modena are so focused on cycling (and Ferrara is a departure point for many cycling excursions into the Po delta) -- that is something you should know, although up to you what you want to emphasize on your trip. But if you add a day to Bologna, might be rewarding and give you time for day trips, of which Ravenna is tops. Bologna can be a fun city, and cheap IF you eat out of the markets or food shops and don't eat in restaurants. If you want to try local cooked pasta, go to Sfoglia Rina or the new pasta takeaway corner that is just opposite the Due Torri. It looks touristy and it is touristy, but the pasta is quality and it beats sitting down in a restaurant for price. Try passatelli in brodo if they have it. (Offerings at both places change every day, so try as many dishes as you can in this pasta crazy city).

However long or short you spend in Bologna please remember that Ravenna is a spectacular cultural destination, unique in the world, so if you enjoy art excursions and history, this is one place not to miss. Words cannot describe.

It's not hard to enjoy Verona in a quick visit, and I think the plan to leave one place late and another early is a good one if it gives you a few hours to enjoy Verona. Everything in quite compact. It's a wonderful mix of top sights and cafe life, and you really don't need to enter anyplace to appreciate the city's main atttractions. You can save yourself a lot of time by not visiting the Romeo and Juliet fakery.

If you can wrangle a bike from somebody in Mantova, it will help you see everything efficiently.

I like all the places you are going but I never tried to see them all in one trip. I will say that if you end up not seeing this or that, or staying longer some place because you love it, and therefore giving up on something else, that sort of thing just can't be helped. There is really tons to see in that part of Italy and it takes another 10 trips to make a real dent in the list.

Just remembered: If you get to Lodi, ask around for somewhere to have a plate of the wonderful unique cheese shavings they eat there called raspadura. They probably serve them at most bars, with a glass of wine and some salami, but some places are surely better than others. It's delightful and I bet the local people are very proud of it and would not want you to leave town without tasting it, so don't be shy to ask for help.

musicdiver

@kitbag - Thanks for the tips! Especially appreciate food ideas. It sucks to end up wandering hungrily about, seeing not much in the pursuit of a meal only to settle for something a bit sad or underwhelming to sate one's appetite (and later learn all the good stuff was around the corner/ that town actually is famous for X cuisine and doesn't really offer Y except to tourists, etc Or equally - Z looks touristy but it's worth it!).

It's heartening to hear Verona might accommodate my short stay there.
I know I've got a lot going on in just two weeks and may indeed end up sacrificing a few of the day trip opportunities with advisable 'next time' thinking. I'm also hopeful the shorter distances between places will help keep it from feeling too rushed. (And I hear you on things taking 10 trips. I've been to Tokyo twice, and stayed about 7 nights both times and still haven't explored all the neighbourhoods of that ever changing city! It hurts a little when I see people opting to do it in just 2-3 nights. )

I've noted down your Lodi suggestion - if I bike out that way I'll definitely look into raspadura!

I do have one logistics query - from what everyone has said about the train system, apart from my Verona to Munich leg (which I'm purchasing now) I should be good doing same-day for train bookings? (Would something like Milan to Florence or Florence to Bologna be advisable to pre-book or are fares likely to be roughly the same?)

PalenQ

If taking the fastest trains between Milan and Florence or Florence to Bologna booking well in advance can save a lot over walk-up fares - but if you take regional trains they are dirt cheap and best bought on day of travel. Florence to Bologna would not be bad on regional train - as they are not far apart - Milan to Florence you may with regional trains have to change once or more and take a lot longer. But regional trains always an option and just buy tickets as go along- these trains are also not nearly as comfy as the newer high-speed trains. check www.seat61.com for loads of advice on booking high-speed Italian trains - general info BETS-European Rail Experts and www.ricksteves.com.

kitbag

The regional trains between Firenze and Bologna take nearly 2 hours and require changes, and the fast train takes 35 minutes with no changes. The exception is an Inter City train leaving around 8.30am which takes 90 minutes with no seat changes.

I would try to book a Florence to Bologna fast train in advance online, as soon as you are clear about what time you want to leave Florence. You may or may not save money, depending on what's available when you book. Definitely take the fast train from Milan to Florence -- and again, book it in advance as soon as you know when you are likely to want to leave. Friday afternoon trains departing Milan book up early, as do many Saturday morning trains.

For the rest of your trains, I think the only choices are regionals, which you needn't bother booking in advance.

PalenQ

Regional trains Florence-Bologna v.v. yeh take about two hours and usually require a change of trains - yes 90 minutes longer each way but you can take any trains - no need to pre-book in stone (discounted tickets non-changeable I believe) - and even cheaper than most discounted tickets. Now most will prefer the faster more comfy trains but I've taken regional trains on that run and rather enjoyed seeing train stop in all those small stations fast trains breeze thru - and local customers getting on and off - watching action in stations, etc. So, it depends on how much of a hurry you are in and whether you want to book high-speed trains in concrete weeks in advance to get those cheap fares. And again regional trains dirt cheap.

Again kitbag is right on - most will not want to spend an extra 90 minutes on a not so comfy train but for folks like me - few that there may be - you may like a slower train.

annhig

Pal - i agree that there are times when slow travel is preferable or even desirable. I deliberately took the slow trains from Coventry to London yesterday and back today - I got an excellent price for first class and I was in no particular hurry as I was staying overnight. And I only "lost" 30 mins or so each way. OTOH if I'd ben going just for the day with a tight schedule I'd probably have wanted the fast train, albeit it would have cost more.

Horses for courses.

kitbag

If people want to take regional trains from Florence to Bologna, then the regional train to take is the one that goes from Florence to Faenza, where you make a switch to Bologna. That route is scenic, whereas the others are not at all. However, there is only one train per day that goes directly from Firenze to Faenza. All the other regionals require change of train between Firenze and Faenza. With luggage -- and with the possibilities of delays along those regional lines that cause missed connections -- most tourists are better off minimizing the number of times they need to switch trains. That's why fast trains are recommended and if one is recommending slower regional trains, it's better to include the information that some lines are scenic, others not, and that regional trains are not as reliable, and the more times you need to switch trains, the more times you risk missing a connection.

(I notice annhg issued warnings about local buses in Bologna. The same warnings are needed about regional train travel. It's not always reliable and that matters to some travelers.)

Also regarding travel by regional train, if you must make train changes, it is often the case that you will find no services at the stations in smaller towns. Bathrooms are locked or non-functioning. There are no food stands. The regional trains themselves do not have these amenities.

So these are things to know if you've never traveled in that part of Italy before and relied on regional trains to go long distances. The fast trains have clean bathrooms and food service, as do their stations.

PalenQ

Thanks for that update on regional trains. One big advantage is no pre-booking required and take any regional train over same course -dirt cheap and for folks like me chance to see small towns and stations (yeh boring to most), etc. Most will find fast trains much more thieir cup of tea.