Dina: Look at Pietrasanta and that area, too.

I had never felt unsafe in Italy either and I did not feel unsafe in Palermo. Until that happened. Even after that, I realized that it was a real fluke experience and happened on a Sunday which was also May 1 so the city was pretty shut up and few people were about. But in the hotel lobby, for goodness sakes. Anyway, that is way off topic. I would LOVE to hear more about Le Marche, too, so am along for the duration of this thread!

As for Puglia, it sounds as if it has a good combination of scenery, pretty towns with interesting and varied architecture, a great variety of delicious foods, many good hotels at all price ranges (good values compared with some other regions) and beaches, too.

The parts of Umbria that I've seen are beautiful but maybe a bit less manicured and wilder than the southern Tuscan areas you mention. Parma also fits well with the Ligurian coast, by the way. Lucca, too.

Remember, the further south you go, the hotter the weather will be.

I love Orvieto in Umbria, and from there you can go around Lago di Bolsano where there are lovely open grassy fields where sheep are grazing, and a pecorino factory or two where you can buy wonderful cheese. Also near the lake is Civita di Bagnoregio, the tiny ancient town on a disintegrating hill that is slowly falling into the canyons around it. It's like a dream or storybook sight. There's a nice restaurant at the end of the road where the causeway goes across from the modern town to the old one. You are also close to the west coast, and could go on west from Orvieto to the beach towns there.

Escrunchy, have you stayed in Pietrasanta? I just googled it and liked the location near the Tuscan coast. I've never heard of it before.

One thing we especially love is a hotel INSIDE a charming town, where you can walk to dinner and shopping, that also has a pool. Any suggestions?
We love staying in Montalcino at the Del Capitano, which fits that bill perfectly. But want to try somewhere new, of course.

Also would love to hear about some beaches on the eastern coast. Rimini, for some reason, doesn't sound appealing. (too miami beach??) we're not that into big crowds.

thanks again

Found this on Pietrasanta:
#4 on Europe's most Idyllic places to live...
4. Pietrasanta, Italy
Population: 24,600

"This very sophisticated, yet low-key town has world-class art galleries and a big arts community," according to Amber Medkiff, travel director of agency Travcoa. "It has great shopping, markets and excellent Ligurian food--pesto and focaccia to die for. Pietrasanta is very close to Forte Dei Marmi, "the Hamptons of Italy," and also is near Florence, Genoa and Lucca.

Lucca was #2, by the way.

here's the link, if you're interested in the article...

http://tinyurl.com/26xwhjk

Thanks so much, Dina! I've not been there but the town and the coastline near there, in general, are on my rather long list of places for the future. But I could not find a hotel with pool in the town of Pietrasanta. On the beach nearby:

http://www.hotelversiliapalace.com/

http://www.villatiziana.com/_eng/hotel.htm


http://www.albergovenezia.com/

Maybe someone can recommend a great hotel on the Tuscan/south Ligurian coast with pool and near, or in, a charming town.




It sounds as if you and I have very similar tastes because those are exactly the qualifications that I seek out. The pool is the more elusive factor. I did stay at two hotels on the Ligurian coast that fit the bill: Cenobio dei Dogi in Camogli and GH Miramare in Santa Margherita Ligure. Of those two, the second is by far the better hotel but I liked Camogli better than SML.

I also like a combination of a few days in a city or large town followed by a few days on the coast, or in a hotel with great pool, if I cannot find all the factors in one spot. So a combo like Lucca and the coast would be good, and also the combo of Lecce with an agriturismo with pool in Puglia. (I hope to make this last pairing work for my next trip, probably in September)

Il Moresco on Ischia also fits the bill. I adored that hotel.

I'm not sure I'd describe Forte dei Marmi as the Hamptons of Itay. It has largely by colonized by newly-minted Russian gazillionaires, much to the consternation of the native Italians. I have visited some "most livable" destinations in Italy. They are usually pretty tame, almost suburbanized places. The metrics are geared toward how many supermarkets, how much air conditioning, other things. Although it is true that Pietrasanta can boast about being an art colony.

Why is Sicily some people's favorite region of Italy?

It's not my favorite place to live, and it has some outstanding negatives, but it is a GREAT place to visit because outside of Taormina, it's not a homogenized tourist experience. Sicily is uncompromisingly Sicily, with its fantastic history, unique art destinations, incredibly varied food and folkloric culture. It's actually a surprisingly wealthy place, with beautiful b&b accommodations. It's an adventure to bomb around Sicily. Other famous tourist destinations feel more like safari parks and tourist beehives. Sicily is raw.

"I'm intrigued by the Umbria, Tuscan coast idea, and maybe adding Ravenna and CT."

It's almost not doable, and if you are determined to see le Cinque Terre (or better yet, less touristed Liguria), I would drop the Tuscan coast for lack of dramatic scenery and too much downscale holiday resort feel. Even so, as you can see on a map, Ravenna and the Mediterranean are on opposite sides of Italy.

That said, the first thing that ever made me want to visit italy was seeing pictures of the mosaics of Ravenna, and now I live not far le Cinque Terre (which is my favorite above Sicily).

So were I attempting that trip, I would make Liguria my first stop (I prefer towns other than those in le Cinque Terre, which I would do for a day trip), take the long train ride to Ravenna (and I probably couldn't resist a visit to Rimini), next pick up a car in Bologna and get on my way to Umbria.


"Is Umbria as pretty as Tuscany?"

It doesn't have the boutique picturesqueness of the val d'Orcia of postcards, nor the drama of the le Crete. The famous art destinations of Umbria are mostly on the periphery of the central bowl or plain, easy to get around, wonderfully fertile, but not a shutterbug's dream. However, around the periphery, especially in the direction of Gubbio and le Marche, some of the scenery is just gorgeous, if wilder than much of the rest of agricultural Italy. Further south, beyond Spoleto, up the mountain from Norcia, the high plateau of the Piano Grande is, to me, one of the great scenic sights of Italy, right up there with Lago di Como.

Le Marche is an utterly wonderful destination, with both everything you'd want in gorgeous scenery, sweet hilltowns and walled towns, great art cities (especially if you include Perugia in Umbria) AND -- beaches too! Many of the Adriatic beaches are flat as a pancake, jammed with hideous condos and 70s hotels, and a louche pleasure culture straight out of Fellini -- literally, he hailed from Rimini and the airport is named after him -- but some of the seaside is dramatically scenic. All of it will be jammed on June and July weekends.

The Le Marche Voyager website is one of the best in Italian tourism: Check it out:

http://www.le-marche.com/

Another great picture-rich website for every destination in Umbria -- tiny, big, scenic or artistic -- is Bella Umbria:

http://www.bellaumbria.net/home_eng.htm

I doubt if I'm being any help, dina. Every place in Italy intrigues me -- although in summer, I like to avoid humidity and stay as cool as I can. I like the Ligurian sea and mountains. I'd like to see Corsica. I think Lago di Como maybe the single most beautiful spot in Italy, but I'd definitely look for a hidey hole that isn't Bellagio for a base.

Maybe people could help focus your trip if you tell us if you like adventure and car-driving into the unknown, or if you prefer train trainsport and including the most important historic and artistic destinations in Italy.

thanks for your detailed info!!

i need to take all this in and i'll be back with questions!!

"Sicily is raw" is a great term and just about parcels the place nicely. It has an edge that you just do not get in Italy or Europe for that matter. There are huge positives and huge negatives, as we are time poor we can't afford huge negatives.

Dina

I think the hotel at C Di V is a little out of our range at £2000 a night. Besides you can be 50 meters from what has to be the best beach in Europe (Cappricicola) by staying at Residence Cappricicola on the headland for E600 a week. It is basic but the location is amazing, being nestled between the Olivetti family villa and that of the owner of Bayern Munich.

How about a split between land and sea. We have done these two :

San Quirico and Monte Argentario : Del Capitano and Hotel Piccola

or

Lucca and Elba.

We absolutely loved Elba which again, being Italy, has its own little micro-culture. It doesn't have the arrogance of Tuscany or the aggression of Sicily. It is very small and gets totally swamped on late July/August. During your planned time frame it should be calmer.

We stayed in a villa literally on the beach in Il Forno with a Sardinian type beach. The ferry over is an hour and is an experience in itself. It is also very cheap compared to Sardinia - Porto Cervo one cappuccino = 9 euros. The bakery on the quayside in Portoferraio (Panelba) = 2 cappuccini and 3 pan au chocs = 5 euros!!!

On the mainland we also love the beaches at Marina di Alberese (famous on the postcards as the dead pines trees contort into the sea. Monte Argentario just forgot to bring itself out of the 1950s (which is no bad thing). I may be bias as I sail and at the time there was a antique wooden yacht regatta. The place was literally straight from the pages of a Dickie Greenleaf's life story! (they filmed Talented Mr Ripley there).

Zeppole

"Forte dei Marmi is not the Hamptons of Itay" I would agree again and just as in case of the Costa Del Sol, I just don't see it as a Fodors desination. We do have standard here you know!

Dina

If it is any consolation, we are going through the same predicament at the moment. Having seen most of Spain, Greece, Italy and Croatia (and quite frankly not liking the French) we are lost. I posted a request a couple of days ago about Huelva in Spain but it sunk like the usual stone on the Europe forum conveyor belt (I love mixed metaphors!). Sorry to be a burden but any ideas? (Europe)

If you do decide Sicily (east coast) all I can say is be very, very, very careful. We looked at renting in places like Lido di Noto/Avola and couldn't decide. In the end we booked into a beautiful mansion hotel (8 bedrooms and beautiful ground called Il Parco. It was like staying in an English National Trust property and great. However, we visited Lido di Noto/Avola and it was simply shocking, totally uncontrolled development, the like of which I have never seen in Europe or much of Africa. A planning officer can never have been there in 50 years or if they did I presume they left with a large brown paper bag stuffed full of cash. Just shocking. As a mentioned previously there are beautiful areas such as Siracusa, Vendicari and Noto. We found Taormina to be a bit shabby and full of coach/cruise parties.

Mark:

Where did you stay on your visits to the Monte Argentario area?

Have you visited Puglia and if so, what were your impressions?

I have now added Elba to my long list..

Many thanks!

mark-

Elba sounds wonderful!
Would you mind sharing info about the villa you rented??
or any hotels you like?
(nothing in the CdeV range please)

Also,
is this hotel you stayed in monte argentario?
Hotel Torre di Cala Piccola
it looks lovely!

thank you!!

hello to you all..

i am thinking about retiring and wanted to leave manhatan and rent a place in the southern part of italy for a year..
i will have a budget of course..so i was thinking of a town thats close to a train..also may be a near by university to take some italian classes..etc
i do hiking a lot and I enjoy the walks on the beach..art galleries..cooking etc..
i am a traveler and now i feel i have the luxury of time which was challenging when i still worked full time..
i read a lot of your thread and it sounds so exciting..i have been to italy a few times and visited the main cities etc..now i am thinking UMBRIA or the like but i am concerned about the rental etc and wander if i could afford it..hmm
any info will be appreciated..

gratsi..lg

Dina thanks for pointing out that hotel! It does look lovely! I think you need a car to get to the town, though.

Dina/Ekscrunchy

Yes, it was Torre di Piccola - it was fine. in line with a lot of Italian hotels it could have been a lot better. I have just paid a similar amount to saty at the new Hilton in Manchester, UK and was rewarded with 5 star quality. You always seem to have to knock a star off the official rating in Italy to get a UK/US relative rating. The roosm were in a modern block but the common area was in a lovely old tower. They didn't do evening meals just breakfast but the fish restaurants in Porto Ercole/San Stefano are very good. the area is like Sardinia in that being a Roman bolt hole the prices can be in the clouds. I would definitely go back but there is no sandy beach.

On Elba we stayed here :

http://www.elba-vacanze.net/scheda.p...a=appartamenti

the pictures do it justice, it was the Caribbean without the sharks (although the last European Great White attack was down the road!). There are great cliff walks to 3 lovely beach restaurants and a longer walk into the main town.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2115/...50a08ffb36.jpg

It is a real shame for us, as Elba is way off limits due to our holiday window now being August only. It is totally and utterly overrun during that month and I can see that the island does fail to cope.

Esk : Pulia - we haven't been and I have to say that after Sicily we will probably only go whilst on one of our sailing trips as a stopover from the Ionian. If we like it we will give it a full 2 weeks.

Just remembered another of our off the beaten track little haunts - Castiglione della Pescaia which isn't spectacular just a great little sleepy place.

ps this nis the best value on Sardinia - billionaire row without the prices. The beach at sunrise is one of the world's great experiences. Mercury water and palatte in the sky.

http://www.residenzacapriccioli.com/

Well, Sicily isn't my favourite but it is so different and a nice change. I like staying in Catania, but others may find it boring compared to Taorima. I love the nights there(especially during the tango festival where you can bring a bottle of wine and enjoy on the steps by moon and the glow of Etna or be dragged up by a professional to dance in the streets) and spending the afternoon on the beach. Of course you have to see the whole island before settling down to a summer like that and there is so much to tug at your heart, that you'll be moving around eventually making your way to Palermo which is overwhelming (but scary at night and they seem to shut down after 11pm)
Le Marches is just unspoilt beauty with Urbino and Ascoli one of the many highlights. Marche has everything - history, natural beauty, wonderful beaches(some of the cleanest!), mountains, culture and genuine italian hospitality. And it's all reasonably priced. The people there are so friendly and helpful, something so different than Rome or the high tourist areas.
It's someplace you just want to take your time in and visit the villages and let the beauty (both natural and ancient), the art, and history overwhelm you slowly.
When you walk the streets of Urbino you can feel the ancient history and it's renassiance architeture is so well preserved you feel like you've travelled back in time... but not quite. In Ascoli you can spend the whole day in a café in piazza del popolo just watching life, after being overwhelmed by the spectacular duomo, the cathedrals, museums, and palace, and just wandering the old quarter.

Markrosy: Many thanks for the great information! I agree with you about having to knock off a star in the ratings in Italy. A prime example of this is the "4-star" Cenobio dei Dogi in Camogli. The loveliest setting imaginable and the exterior is gorgeous, but delve inside and see the non-descript rooms (in the least expensive categories, which are the only ones I saw--I had a fairly terrible single facing the parking lot) with the laminated plastics and scratched wood, and experience the often less-than-gracious service, and you get the idea. As long as people realize this ahead of time...... Having said that, I still might return to that hotel since the prices are not in the stratosphere and the I adored Camogli.

The Torre di Piccola looks lovely but I now consider myself forewarned. Can you walk to town from there and if not, is there a bus?


And finally, if I have your attention: What do you think of Mallorca--away from the tacky resort areas? (I am curious because I have an invitation...)

lgny_lcsw, have you read about Perugia? Several universities there and amazing old center. 3-month Italian class at University for Strangers!

Start a new thread about this and good luck!

I do not have the experience with Italy many here have...but I have been to the Cinque Terre...along with the other major cities (Venice, Florence, Rome, Siena). We stayed in Vernazza...if you like to hike, like breathtaking views, and actually like to save a little money (we found our hotel charming and cheaper). I'm not sure if I have a favorite Italian destination....but Vernazza and Siena...are both places I literally dream about. The poster who lives by the Cinque Terre (what a fortunate person) can probably tell more about it...that was also a good idea to go to Liguria and day trip into Cinque Terre. But I did notice that the tourists are mainly there during the day....and the evenings are quieter and so gorgeous!!

Esk. There is a free hotel bus into town from Piccola which is pretty flexible. Notice it doesn't have a website it's just a small family run affair and very friendly. The views and infinity pool are spectacular.

I love Mallorca, it offers everything for everyone at ANY level from McDs for Michelin 3 star. For us the best development over the past few years has been the growth of Finca (farmhouse) hotels. many of the farm owners have been to Tuscany to see the business models there and received local government grants to develop a 4 star level product. Many offer food from their farms and have applied the generally high spec design that you will find in Spain to their rooms.

We have used :

http://www.theothermallorca.com/

As an agent they cover most of the popular Fincas and are professional in their approach. The downside is that, even after the local government has built several very good motorways, in July/August visitor number are simply obscene and the travel infrastructure just fails. June and September are good months to visit as is February when the almond blossom is out in the fields. Temperatures in Feb can average 15 - 18oC although we have had 4oC. April/May is usually warmish but the rain can come down day after day.

We love Pollensa/Porto Petro/Arta/Colonia St Jordi which are all quieter higher middle market. The east/ north east can get silly with the rich and tasteless of Europe descending in droves to flash their (or their banks) cash. The old railway from Palma to Soller is great fun and the scenery on the north coast is simply stunning.

Dina

I forgot about this place for you in Sardinia - book it! we stayed at the side of it in a villa. It is so high end design that in the flesh it just doesn't look real, it just looked computer generated.

http://www.lacoluccia.eu/luxury_hote...inia-1333.html

I would point out that my wife wouldn't go in as she believed that she was 6 ounces over her correct weight and hadn't got the right pair of sunglasses.