Is non-fat milk common in Paris's coffee shop?
Dec 17th, 2004, 11:44 AM
#21
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MorganB - 4% milk is not the skim milk we use here, which is 0% milk fat. Partly skimmed is 2% (which tastes rich when you're used to no fat) or 1%m.f.
Full fat milk is 3.5% milk fat. And I just bought some "light cream" which was 6% m.f.
Full fat milk is 3.5% milk fat. And I just bought some "light cream" which was 6% m.f.
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:36 PM
#22
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Ohhh i thought skim was the low percentage stuff and the other was called non fat or something lol. I always buy whole milk so I am sure I was wrong on the number... Will look tmo when i go to the store.
PalQ.... Maybe it depends on the region? I bet up in Normandy they drink whole milk alot... I was thinking of the hypermarches in the south of france... but will look tmo here in paris.
PalQ.... Maybe it depends on the region? I bet up in Normandy they drink whole milk alot... I was thinking of the hypermarches in the south of france... but will look tmo here in paris.
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:43 PM
#24
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MorganB: It's just that i've had a running discussion with my ex-wife, French, about her demanding that whole milk is 'more feeding' than low-fat and i always take stock of the three types of milk and their color-coded plastic caps at the market. I of course claim that at any age whole milk is a poor idea. But the whole is losing ground. As for geographical differences, may be but i think upscale areas would be more for low-fat - comes with education. In my ex-in-laws most are older and still drink whole milk, but the ones with the most education tend for low fat, for the reasons of health. I may be wrong and skim/low may rule some places.
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:58 PM
#26
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Also, last time I checked, but it's been a while, the pediatric recommendation was that whole milk products were recommended for all children under 2 (who are old enough for cow's milk, which shouldn't start until age 1). This was to provide enough fat for their brains.
Dec 17th, 2004, 04:02 PM
#27
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I could be wrong on this; I am a physician, but I do not treat ANY adult patients. Still...
If your current dietary/medication regimen (which includes avoiding all milkfat) has your cholesterol in your "target range" (whether truly normal, or merely reduced to some margin above normal) - - then, even 6-12 large cups of coffee ("Cafe Americain"
with generous portions of either whole milk (4% milkfat) or real cream (10-12% milkfat) per day would scarcely raise your cholesterol by 10-20% in the average 5-20 day span of travels abroad. Unlike blood glucose (sugar), there seems to be little if any attention given to (the modest) rises in cholesterol which occur after eating (triglycerides rise dramatically after eating - - and I don't think that most experts think knowing about these post-eating increases are important, nor practical to investigate, either). So, the increase (that I'm speculating about) which you <i>might</i> experience, would be in your early AM fasting cholesterol (if it occurs at all).
And - - again I am speculating, not speaking from studied experience - - I think that a short-term rise in fasting cholesterol (and <i>especially</i> if accompanied by a significant rise in daily walking) will produce an incredibly small increase in your short-term "major cardiovascular event" risk. Likewise, an almost immeasurably small impact on your long-term cardiovascular morbidity/mortality risk.
And of course, if you have "cholestrol concerns", it's very worth your while to review with your physician the things that may or may not be important in otherwise managing your cardiovasular disease risk(s): reducing or stopping smoking, keeping your high blood pressure under control, if applicable, taking a baby aspirin daily if you are an appropriate candidate, avoiding oral contraceptives, and getting regular exercise - - <i><b>not</b></i> <i>just</i> while you are traveling in France!
Best wishes,
Rex
If your current dietary/medication regimen (which includes avoiding all milkfat) has your cholesterol in your "target range" (whether truly normal, or merely reduced to some margin above normal) - - then, even 6-12 large cups of coffee ("Cafe Americain"
with generous portions of either whole milk (4% milkfat) or real cream (10-12% milkfat) per day would scarcely raise your cholesterol by 10-20% in the average 5-20 day span of travels abroad. Unlike blood glucose (sugar), there seems to be little if any attention given to (the modest) rises in cholesterol which occur after eating (triglycerides rise dramatically after eating - - and I don't think that most experts think knowing about these post-eating increases are important, nor practical to investigate, either). So, the increase (that I'm speculating about) which you <i>might</i> experience, would be in your early AM fasting cholesterol (if it occurs at all).And - - again I am speculating, not speaking from studied experience - - I think that a short-term rise in fasting cholesterol (and <i>especially</i> if accompanied by a significant rise in daily walking) will produce an incredibly small increase in your short-term "major cardiovascular event" risk. Likewise, an almost immeasurably small impact on your long-term cardiovascular morbidity/mortality risk.
And of course, if you have "cholestrol concerns", it's very worth your while to review with your physician the things that may or may not be important in otherwise managing your cardiovasular disease risk(s): reducing or stopping smoking, keeping your high blood pressure under control, if applicable, taking a baby aspirin daily if you are an appropriate candidate, avoiding oral contraceptives, and getting regular exercise - - <i><b>not</b></i> <i>just</i> while you are traveling in France!
Best wishes,
Rex
Dec 18th, 2004, 02:35 AM
#29
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Whole milk is recommended here (in Belgium) for young children. A low-fat regime is not good for them, since certain vitamins are not absorbed as well by the body without fat. Some children in affluent countries now suffer from so-called 'muesli malnutrition' since parents put them on a low-fat diet.
Anyway, the best you can do is probably low-fat. I've never seen non-fat milk here.
Anyway, the best you can do is probably low-fat. I've never seen non-fat milk here.
Dec 18th, 2004, 04:07 AM
#30
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From what I've read on the subject, the rate of heart attacks and strokes among people with high cholesterol is roughly the same as the rate among those with average and low cholesterol.
The one thing that can't be argued is that if you have a drug that lowers cholesterol and sell it to a lot of people whom you have scared to death that they are doomed to an early end, you will make a lot of money.
I believe the French are genetically predisposed to be thin. The only fat people I've seen in France are not natives. A little whole milk in coffee once a day shouldn't be much concern.
The one thing that can't be argued is that if you have a drug that lowers cholesterol and sell it to a lot of people whom you have scared to death that they are doomed to an early end, you will make a lot of money.
I believe the French are genetically predisposed to be thin. The only fat people I've seen in France are not natives. A little whole milk in coffee once a day shouldn't be much concern.
Dec 18th, 2004, 04:25 AM
#31
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Dear Hal,
May I bring the following to your attention?
"High blood cholesterol — A high level of total cholesterol in the blood (240 mg/dL or higher) is a major risk factor for heart disease, which raises your risk of stroke. Recent studies show that high levels of LDL ("bad" cholesterol (greater than 100 mg/dL) and triglycerides (blood fats, 150 mg/dL or higher) increase the risk of stroke in people with previous coronary heart disease, ischemic stroke or transient ischemic attack (TIA). Low levels (less than 40 mg/dL) of HDL ("good" cholesterol also may raise stroke risk".
See http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4716
May I bring the following to your attention?
"High blood cholesterol — A high level of total cholesterol in the blood (240 mg/dL or higher) is a major risk factor for heart disease, which raises your risk of stroke. Recent studies show that high levels of LDL ("bad"
cholesterol (greater than 100 mg/dL) and triglycerides (blood fats, 150 mg/dL or higher) increase the risk of stroke in people with previous coronary heart disease, ischemic stroke or transient ischemic attack (TIA). Low levels (less than 40 mg/dL) of HDL ("good" cholesterol also may raise stroke risk".See http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4716
Dec 18th, 2004, 04:38 AM
#32
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All the extra stair-climbing and walking we do when in Europe negates any ill effects of the cholesterol and saturated fat-laden foods we may consume. My MIL on a trip years ago did not have to take her blood pressure and diabetic meds while travelling with us. She ate the same foods we ate (including pastries and tarts). Her fasting blood sugars were low normal and her blood pressure dropped. It was attributed to the cardiovascular benefits of walking everywhere for two weeks.
Of course when we returned to the USA, she reverted to her usual (non-mobile) way of life and prescriptions.
Of course when we returned to the USA, she reverted to her usual (non-mobile) way of life and prescriptions.
Dec 18th, 2004, 04:41 AM
#33
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Yeah, Ira,
I have read that.
I have also read that the percentage of people who have heart attacks who also have high cholesterol is just under 50%. That means that the rest of the people who have heart attacks DO NOT HAVE HIGH CHOLESTEROL.
I have not seen any studies that demonstrate that high cholesterol causes heart attacks. I have read that some people with high cholesterol have heart attacks; many never do. Many people with average and low cholesterol do have heart attacks. This would indicate that more research needs to be done and that using current information as a guide for everyday living is really just a gamble.
The proven link is that drug companies are making a bundle selling drugs to lower cholesterol.
I have read that.
I have also read that the percentage of people who have heart attacks who also have high cholesterol is just under 50%. That means that the rest of the people who have heart attacks DO NOT HAVE HIGH CHOLESTEROL.
I have not seen any studies that demonstrate that high cholesterol causes heart attacks. I have read that some people with high cholesterol have heart attacks; many never do. Many people with average and low cholesterol do have heart attacks. This would indicate that more research needs to be done and that using current information as a guide for everyday living is really just a gamble.
The proven link is that drug companies are making a bundle selling drugs to lower cholesterol.
Dec 18th, 2004, 07:14 AM
#35
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Suggesting that there is no link between elevated cholesterol and cardiovascular disease is essentially rejecting a whole world of serious science. That's not to say that the assertion(s) might not have merit - - about marketing of cholesterol-lowering drugs and the creation of a very profitable segment of the pharmaceutical industry. These drugs are one step, one important step - - but the cost:benefit does get easily glossed over - - <i><b>decades</b></i> of taking these drugs almost certainly delays, by <i><b>years</b></i>, the likelihood of major cardiovascular events (heart attacks, both life-threatening and not, stroke, and other serious atherosclerotic arterial obstructions).
My earlier point was that a "vacation from cholesterol management" - - especially with transgressions no greater than whole milk in coffee (say, 4 tablespoons, 6 times a day - - so, I am allowing quite generously) will have an impact on both short-term and long-term cardiovascular risks that is too small to ponder.
Changing the subject a bit, I do think there is an increasing number of "Gen-Y" kids and young adults who are so accustomed to skim milk that they strenuously resist whole milk, or even 2%, on the basis of taste. Our youngest daughter drinks two, if not three quarts of skim milk a day (including her cereal consumption which is considerable, on some days). When she has no other choice but 2% milk for cereal, she will dilute it about 2-3 parts water to 1 part 2% milk. If her only choice is whole milk - - much to my astonishment - - she will just put water... on virtually any kind of cereal.
My earlier point was that a "vacation from cholesterol management" - - especially with transgressions no greater than whole milk in coffee (say, 4 tablespoons, 6 times a day - - so, I am allowing quite generously) will have an impact on both short-term and long-term cardiovascular risks that is too small to ponder.
Changing the subject a bit, I do think there is an increasing number of "Gen-Y" kids and young adults who are so accustomed to skim milk that they strenuously resist whole milk, or even 2%, on the basis of taste. Our youngest daughter drinks two, if not three quarts of skim milk a day (including her cereal consumption which is considerable, on some days). When she has no other choice but 2% milk for cereal, she will dilute it about 2-3 parts water to 1 part 2% milk. If her only choice is whole milk - - much to my astonishment - - she will just put water... on virtually any kind of cereal.
Dec 18th, 2004, 01:23 PM
#37
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"The secret to the cholesterol battles is all in the genes"
Judging from some of the views I've had walking down the street behind certain people, I'd say much of the secret is in the jeans, not the genes.
And that isn't all true anyway. Both my parents had very high cholestrol, but mine is always so low it gets flagged on blood tests as "below standard range".
And by the way, my father ate three eggs fried in bacon grease every day of his life, and sometimes also ate the two yolks from my mother's eggs. While his cholestrol was very high, his heart and arteries were very healthy. He died from a number of unrelated diseases including diabetes, but the doctor said if it hadn't been for his very healthy heart and clear arteries he would have died much earlier. Go figure.
Judging from some of the views I've had walking down the street behind certain people, I'd say much of the secret is in the jeans, not the genes.
And that isn't all true anyway. Both my parents had very high cholestrol, but mine is always so low it gets flagged on blood tests as "below standard range".
And by the way, my father ate three eggs fried in bacon grease every day of his life, and sometimes also ate the two yolks from my mother's eggs. While his cholestrol was very high, his heart and arteries were very healthy. He died from a number of unrelated diseases including diabetes, but the doctor said if it hadn't been for his very healthy heart and clear arteries he would have died much earlier. Go figure.
Dec 18th, 2004, 02:44 PM
#38
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Dear Patrick,
I don't think that diabetes is unrelated to high cholesterol.
Dear Hal,
I have not been able to find a reference to your statement that "the percentage of people who have heart attacks who also have high cholesterol is just under 50%".
The closest I have come is "The Framingham Heart Study is an ongoing research effort. Cholesterol levels, smoking habits, heart attack rates, and deaths in the population of an entire town have been recorded for over 40 years. After 30 years, more than 85% of persons with cholesterol levels of 180 mg/dL or less were still alive; almost a third of those with cholesterol levels greater than 260 mg/dL had died", which seems to contradict your statement.
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz...sterolemia.jsp
Would you be so kind as to cite your sources?
I don't think that diabetes is unrelated to high cholesterol.
Dear Hal,
I have not been able to find a reference to your statement that "the percentage of people who have heart attacks who also have high cholesterol is just under 50%".
The closest I have come is "The Framingham Heart Study is an ongoing research effort. Cholesterol levels, smoking habits, heart attack rates, and deaths in the population of an entire town have been recorded for over 40 years. After 30 years, more than 85% of persons with cholesterol levels of 180 mg/dL or less were still alive; almost a third of those with cholesterol levels greater than 260 mg/dL had died", which seems to contradict your statement.
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz...sterolemia.jsp
Would you be so kind as to cite your sources?
